Would you hunt turkeys with these patterns?

[Zoar]

Okay you asked :wink: ---

Pyrodex is more finicky, does not ignite as readily, has too much thrust (and makes patterns blow apart as you have noted) and it is NO WHERE near as much FUN! Black Powder is reliable, ignites well, does not blow apart patterns unless you overload it and it is WAY WAY WAY FUN!

Cork wads from many sources (Michael Lea 614 291 4757) among many others, TVA, etc.

Can you find another replacement leather pouch--I don't see why not.

I would use that combo of shot. I actually like to mix 7&1/2's with slightly larger shot OR just use 7&1/2's. I think it is more about density of pattern and population size of the shot for birds and that includes turkey. If you keep your shots within a certain distance like 25-30 yards I do not see why 7&1/2's over BLACK POWDER shooting a TIGHT pattern will kill a turkey. (Just my experience).

 

[Dausener]

Yes the #7.5s will work. Just be sure to limit your shots to what your pattern will allow. It will most likely be 25 yards or less. Also most definitely try the 2F if you have it. It cant hurt. I used 80 gr 2F and 1 3/8 oz. of 7.5s this year in my 20 ga. flinter and had no problem.

 

[jrhills]

OK I'm going to try your suggestion - I have a 75-grain powder attachment for my powder dispenser so I guess that should be close enough to 80 gr. And maybe I'll mix 1/4 by volume #4s with the #7.5s you recommend.

Thanks a lot.

Looking for a nice sunny Vermont morning!

Jeff Hills
Dorset, VT

 

[Dausener]

Good luck Jeff! :thumbsup: I hope to be out hunting in the morning too. :v

 

[Zoar]

JRH--Cool! and just for data base/ info try just 7.5's to see how many strikes you get on the turkey head or can lid... I bet you will be pleased at how many more strikes you get with the 7.5's over 75-80 grains of REAL BLACK POWDER load!

Let us know!!! This is a useful thread and you are doing valuable research work! :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[roundball]

For what it's worth, this is a comparison photo of three 3.5" steel tuna cans at 25yds.
The barrel was a 42" Rice .54cal(.28ga) flint smoothbore / cylinder bore.
60grn measure of Goex 3F
Left=100grn measure of chilled #5s
Middle=100grn measure of mag #6s
Right=90grns measure mag #7.5s

Note a few 'dents' are appearing where the 7.5s didn't punch through...and as a result I wouldn't use it on turkeys.
But if another 10grns of powder doesn't thin out the pattern too much, it should turn those dents into holes and be a good #7.5 load to 25 yds.
Of the three, the #6 load is my choice for turkey...good density and I know the heavier 6s will stay together and carry energy to take down a turkey for another 5yds.
The #5s load is for squirrels...also easily good to 30yds or further.

 

[Zoar]

Round--EXCELLENT comparison and yes the key here is you were ONLY using 60 grains of black powder!!! With 75 or 80 grains of BLACK POWDER (again, as long at it does not blow out the pattern) the 7.5's would be very lethal.

(NOTE: The density of the 7.5's was astonishing and most actually were penetrations even with such a low powder charge! It looks to me like at LEAST 14 penetrations compared to only 7 penetrations on the Number 5's. WOW!)

Excellent!

 

[roundball]

It looks to me like at LEAST 14 penetrations compared to only 7 penetrations on the Number 5's. WOW!)

And...notice that I dropped the powder measure volume of shot from 100grns to 90grns for the 7.5s since their smaller size puts so many more pellets into the same measure volume (filling up a lot more air space) and I wanted to keep the payload weight reasonably close for velocity sake.

 

[Zoar]

YES, I did notice that!!! Amazing how many more penetrations and hits on that little can lid.

I would try the test with 110 grains of 7.5's and 75 grains of Black Powder.

 

[roundball]

I control the payload weight and powder charge to stay within safe pressure levels so I wouldn't want to use that recommendation in my .28ga.
My load of #6s is more than adequate as a 25-30yd turkey load...

 

[Zoar]

Ahhh, I forgot you have a 28 gauge... I was thinking 20 or 12 gauge. sorry. You are right to keep payload down in that 28 tube.

 

[jrhills]

OK! Will do.
Jeff

 

[jrhills]

What caliber is your Pedersoli?

 

[smokepole tc]

20ga.

 

[Rifleman1776]

It looks to me like at LEAST 14 penetrations compared to only 7 penetrations on the Number 5's. WOW!)

And...notice that I dropped the powder measure volume of shot from 100grns to 90grns for the 7.5s since their smaller size puts so many more pellets into the same measure volume (filling up a lot more air space) and I wanted to keep the payload weight reasonably close for velocity sake.

Recently, either here or on my modern gun forum, someone posted a scientific explanation as to why that supposedly intuitive thinking was false. Keep the measure at same setting for all sizes.

 

[roundball]

It looks to me like at LEAST 14 penetrations compared to only 7 penetrations on the Number 5's. WOW!)

And...notice that I dropped the powder measure volume of shot from 100grns to 90grns for the 7.5s since their smaller size puts so many more pellets into the same measure volume (filling up a lot more air space) and I wanted to keep the payload weight reasonably close for velocity sake.

"...that supposedly intuitive thinking was false..."

Well, unless my digital scales are lying, 'your' statement is false...and no supposedly about it.

People can debate all they want about whether there's enough difference to worry about...but I don't operate by the seat-of-the-pants and hear-say from strangers on the Internet when it comes to things outside the norm.

When doing shot load development, I manage payloads pretty close as it relates to pressures.
That includes running an actual weight check and calculation before trying an unknown shot load that's outside typically available published load data.

Others can do as they wish of course...

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Recently, either here or on my modern gun forum, someone posted a scientific explanation as to why that supposedly intuitive thinking was false. Keep the measure at same setting for all sizes.

Actually, it is partially true. I've posted this on the forum before:

How much shot a measure will hold depends on the aggregate density of the shot - for lead (and its alloys), it's usually given as approximately 7 times denser than the powder, depending somewhat on the alloy. This is apparently the density of hexagonally-close-packed uniform spheres composed of lead alloys with bulk densities of 10.75-11.25 g/cc, depending on alloy, and is independent of shot size (36% porosity, IIRC). That should calculate to 6.9-7.2 g/cc, with most shot alloys in the 7.1-7.2 range. All comparisons I've seen of shot and powder in real-world measures actually come out with shot less than 7 times the weight of the powder because the shot are not perfectly packed in the measure. The dimensions of the measure STRONGLY affect how much shot actually fits in - especially with larger shot. Because of the effects of the geometry of the shot against the sides of the measure, larger shot will not pack as well as smaller, so it will weigh even less in a given measure, and the smaller the diameter of the measure, the greater will be the effects of shot size on charge weight. (I've heard this called "boundary effect" in a discussion of packing.) A shot measure is comparatively fat to minimize the boundary effects on packing and be more consistent with different sizes of shot but with some loss in precision, while a powder measure is skinny to allow more precise measurement of the much finer gunpowder because the boundary-effect differences are much less among different granulations of powder.

Picture a layer of shot in the measure. In the middle, the shot is likely close to that perfectly ordered hexagonal packing, but around the edge, there will be places too small for a shot to fit, so there is less shot in the layer than a perfect hexagon of the same cross-section, or, alternatively, of a circle drawn over a wide perfect layer of hexagonally packed shot. The larger the cross-section of the measure compared to the size of the shot, the greater the portion of the area that will have shot in dense hexagonal packing (roughly proportional to the area of the measure, or to the diameter squared) and the smaller the portion with some "missing" shot (roughly proportional to the circumference, or to the diameter [directly, not squared]). Similarly, the larger the shot, the wider the boundary region with some "missing" shot for a given diameter of measure, and the lower the weight for that layer. The actual 3-dimensional geometry is more complicated, but the same principles still apply.

Regards,
Joel

 

[roundball]

Just as a quick reference weight test using my digital scales, a 120grn T/C adjustable brass powder measure results in the following:

#2 lead shot = 1.75ozs
#9 lead shot = 1.85ozs

6% difference in weight

 

[jrhills]

OK here's an update on my experimenting to try to find the right powder/wad/shot combo for my 20 gauge Pedersoli.

In the first shot are two patterns:
http://www.photoshop.com/users/jef...9838ed1/view#089daeba70204156a02fa53e69f24294

Left barrel (which is choked but I don't know how much) 75 grains FFg with a Mike Lea 20 gauge cardboard overshot disc (which was too small but he shipped it so I tried it out) followed by a Mike Lea fibre wad (about 5/8" thick - also a little small; it just dropped right down the barrel) - followed by 90 grains volume of #4 shot. Never did hit the jar top placed at the point of aim. Pretty bad pattern but it did put 5 shot in the small can lid I put at the point of aim. Penetration in the parts of the lid not bent or reinforced.

Right barrel - same combo as above, fired second after the left barrel because it misfired on my first try - problem solved with a paper clip down the nipple. Pretty bad pattern again with the same powder/wad/shot combo.

Here's a closeup of the jar lid.
http://www.photoshop.com/users/jef...9838ed1/view#c3c38f5d8bb443a9809ac653cc0db1e7

For the second load I went with the same 75 grains of FFg (here I should say thanks to the people who advised DO NOT USE PYRODEX) but I reduced the shot volume load to 75 grains equivalent in the left barrel and 70 in the right barrel. Whoever advised less shot wasn't kidding - the last shot of the four put a relatively huge amount of shot in the target and several in the little can bottom.

Left barrel - 75 FFG/tighter cardboard wads, same Lea fibre wads 75 volume #4 shot.

Right barrel - the last shot - same as the Left above BUT 70 volume equivalent of shot. WOW. Suddenly a really dense pattern.

Here are the left and right patterns:
http://www.photoshop.com/users/jef...9838ed1/view#2ca9559c72d44f5a9f9fe9a9700b39c7

And here's the closeup of the bottom of the can:
http://www.photoshop.com/users/jef...9838ed1/view#f0417eb7829043f3b36897bd0082a2cb

Three hits - no penetration but I guess that's OK because the #4 shot hit at more reinforced places than the plan flat metal surface.

So what do you think? More advice much appreciated.

 

[jrhills]

OK here's an update on my experimenting to try to find the right powder/wad/shot combo for my 20 gauge Pedersoli.

In the first shot are two patterns:
http://www.photoshop.com/users/jef...9838ed1/view#089daeba70204156a02fa53e69f24294

Left barrel (which is choked but I don't know how much) 75 grains FFg with a Mike Lea 20 gauge cardboard overshot disc (which was too small but he shipped it so I tried it out) followed by a Mike Lea fibre wad (about 5/8" thick - also a little small; it just dropped right down the barrel) - followed by 90 grains volume of #4 shot. Never did hit the jar top placed at the point of aim. Pretty bad pattern but it did put 5 shot in the small can lid I put at the point of aim. Penetration in the parts of the lid not bent or reinforced.

Right barrel - same combo as above, fired second after the left barrel because it misfired on my first try - problem solved with a paper clip down the nipple. Pretty bad pattern again with the same powder/wad/shot combo.

Here's a closeup of the jar lid.
http://www.photoshop.com/users/jef...9838ed1/view#c3c38f5d8bb443a9809ac653cc0db1e7

For the second load I went with the same 75 grains of FFg (here I should say thanks to the people who advised DO NOT USE PYRODEX) but I reduced the shot volume load to 75 grains equivalent in the left barrel and 70 in the right barrel. Whoever advised less shot wasn't kidding - the last shot of the four put a relatively huge amount of shot in the target and several in the little can bottom.

Left barrel - 75 FFG/tighter cardboard wads, same Lea fibre wads 75 volume #4 shot.

Right barrel - the last shot - same as the Left above BUT 70 volume equivalent of shot. WOW. Suddenly a really dense pattern.

Here are the left and right patterns:
http://www.photoshop.com/users/jef...9838ed1/view#2ca9559c72d44f5a9f9fe9a9700b39c7

And here's the closeup of the bottom of the can:
http://www.photoshop.com/users/jef...9838ed1/view#f0417eb7829043f3b36897bd0082a2cb

Three hits - no penetration but I guess that's OK because the #4 shot hit at more reinforced places than the plan flat metal surface.

So what do you think? More advice much appreciated.