Woven Woven Everywhere

[Artificer]

Got a REAL kick out of the above from your first link:

"It became a tradition in New England for a young man to make a modestly elaborate tape loom for his intended, presumably to indicate his esteem for the girl, but perhaps, more practically, to show he had some decent woodworking skills. And we wonder why New England men lack something in the romance department when they start out from a tradition of practical household tools as courting gifts."


So perhaps OhioRamm's husband needs to get busy, even if he is not from New England? :haha:

Gus

 

[Tallswife]

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Black Hand]

"It became a tradition in New England for a young man to make a modestly elaborate tape loom for his intended, presumably to indicate his esteem for the girl, but perhaps, more practically, to show he had some decent woodworking skills. And we wonder why New England men lack something in the romance department when they start out from a tradition of practical household tools as courting gifts."

Honey - let's get married. Here's your vacuum-cleaner.... :wink: :grin: :grin:
Who can say that romance is dead in America?

 

[Artificer]

Well, consider how in the 18-19th century a woman often made a sampler to show a prospective husband that she could sew well and read and write.

So the woman got a household implement and the man got a decorated piece of cloth. Now there's romance for you! :rotf:

Gus

 

[Black Hand]

Well, consider how in the 18-19th century a woman often made a sampler to show a prospective husband that she could sew well and read and write.

Ironic that it may have been a wallet...

 

[KLWeaver]

Hilarious!!! :rotf: :rotf:

I wish my husband had any practical skills like that. My grandfather is a carpenter and I've always admired his ability to create art with wood. Though as sick as he has been and as the dementia sets in, he has will be spending less time in the shop or I'd have him made me a loom.

I am loving all these links, everyone, thank you kindly!

 

[Crewdawg445]

No one is disputing inkle-woven items were available elsewhere at some time in history....

:applause:

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

No one is disputing inkle-woven items were available elsewhere at some time in history....

:applause:

I believe the argument I had made in my last post may have been misconstrued.

 

[Black Hand]

It appeared that you were trying to link the mention of inkles (an alternate name for tapes) in Shakespearean times (in England) to their potential presence in the (American) colonies 100 years or more later. Considering the fickle nature of fashion, 100 years is practically an eternity as fashions changed very rapidly, even back then. Just look at what happened to coats, waistcoats, breeches, stocks/cravats and hats between 1730-40 and 1770-80.

It could also be a matter of nomenclature that is at the root of the confusion.

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

Sort of...

The connection I am trying to make is with the looms. If you look at it as three woven products separated by 2 continents, 1 ocean, and 340 years: it is difficult to make the association. However, if you instead focus on the three looms, and more specifically how they create the same end product, it becomes much easier to make the connection.

People still find woven goods very attractive, comfortable, and desirable to own in 2016, some things don't go out of fashion. We are almost at the point of debating whether the vast amounts of box tape looms within the colonies and beyond were actually used, or if they were just around for there aesthetic value.

 

[Black Hand]

However, if you instead focus on the three looms, and more specifically how they create the same end product, it becomes much easier to make the connection.

I'd say "similar" but not necessarily "the same"...

 

[Billnpatti]

It seems to me that the current discussion centers on the loom rather than the product. Let me pose the question in a different manner. Let us assume a scene where two equally skilled persons sit down to make a sash using the same HC materials. One uses a loom of the period and the other uses an Inkle loom. When finished, would the sash woven on the Inkle loom differ significantly from the one woven on the loom of the period. If the two resulting sashes are not significantly different, then one could not say that just because a sash was woven on an Inkle loom it would not be HC. Make sense? :hmm:

 

[George]

If the two resulting sashes are not significantly different, then one could not say that just because a sash was woven on an Inkle loom it would not be HC.

I hope that's true. Think of all the gear we would have to discard if it weren't....starting with all reproduction guns, including the custom ones.

Spence

 

[Tallswife]

It seems to me that the current discussion centers on the loom rather than the product. Let me pose the question in a different manner. Let us assume a scene where two equally skilled persons sit down to make a sash using the same HC materials. One uses a loom of the period and the other uses an Inkle loom. When finished, would the sash woven on the Inkle loom differ significantly from the one woven on the loom of the period. If the two resulting sashes are not significantly different, then one could not say that just because a sash was woven on an Inkle loom it would not be HC. Make sense? :hmm:

Speaking as a weaver with multiple looms, I can tell you they will all look different. Tension, reed dent, beating, will all change the look of the finished product. They may be similar in pattern and color, but the size, tightness, and overall look will be different. Each loom has a different "personality" that lends to this effect.

 

[BillinOregon]

Good old Doddridge! Thanks for that post, Spence. I need to make up a proper loom and find a new home for the inkle I built.

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

Speaking as a weaver with multiple looms, I can tell you they will all look different. Tension, reed dent, beating, will all change the look of the finished product. They may be similar in pattern and color, but the size, tightness, and overall look will be different. Each loom has a different "personality" that lends to this effect.

Good, we are definitely making progress in this conversation.

Now would these differences in personality knock a modern inkle woven product out of the realm of HC/PC, especially considering how much of what is done here is mainly attempting to copy 18th/19th century items? Take for example modern machined ml barrels that are clearly a 20th/21st century product that has no where near the personality of a hand forged original, but its' HC/PC authenticity is seldom if ever brought up for debate. There are dozens of other examples, but I do not want to go too far off topic.

Also, if you believe that a modern inkle woven product does not pass the PC/HC requirements on its' own, could a master weaver use a modern inkle loom to reproduce a product that does meet those criteria?

Thank you.

 

[Tallswife]

Good, we are definitely making progress in this conversation.

Now would these differences in personality knock a modern inkle woven product out of the realm of HC/PC, especially considering how much of what is done here is mainly attempting to copy 18th/19th century items? Take for example modern machined ml barrels that are clearly a 20th/21st century product that has no where near the personality of a hand forged original, but its' HC/PC authenticity is seldom if ever brought up for debate. There are dozens of other examples, but I do not want to go too far off topic.

Also, if you believe that a modern inkle woven product does not pass the PC/HC requirements on its' own, could a master weaver use a modern inkle loom to reproduce a product that does meet those criteria?

Thank you.

I don't believe it would "knock it out of the realm of HC/PC" It would be different. I know, broad term here. Sort of like English and Spanish, they are both languages, but not the same.

I think the biggest issue would be tension on the warp. PC box loom would have different tension vs modern engineering of today. Not having todays mechanical engineering of gears, the box loom may have not held the tension as well, or it may have slipped. (Disclaimer: I've not woven on an antique or reproduction box loom) This would result in a softer, not so tight weave structure.

The fiber of 100-200 years ago would also be quite different. Sheep breeding, and nutrition, for wool production has changed the quality of the fiber vastly. Strength, staple length, and general quality have all been improved. The same holds true for cotton and flax production also. Commercial fibers of today are nowhere near what was produced 200 years ago. Different processing methods, chemical use in dying (synthetic dying started in 1856), and mixing different fibers created a new "animal" so to speak.

I don't believe that using an inkle loom itself to recreate a period product is a bad thing. Could a Master Weaver recreate a more "authentic" product on an Inkle? Sure, provided he/she is using a looser weave structure, hand processed and spun wool (synthetic fibers show up in 1911), and dyed with natural plant fibers or picric acid dying (1788)could reproduce a product that would be hard to tell from an original.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Also, if you believe that a modern inkle woven product does not pass the PC/HC requirements on its' own, could a master weaver use a modern inkle loom to reproduce a product that does meet those criteria?

For some things, I think criteria can be a personal standard. We all set the bar at a different height.

Some people are happy with a knife and sheath that are completely machine made, while others are proud to know that theirs was "hand made" by a craftsman and it's a one-of-a-kind. They both may look and function the same, but there's no denying, that for some, knowing what went into it is relevant.

 

[Artificer]

Just wanted to say I have found your information fascinating and have enjoyed learning more about it. Thank you.

Gus

 

[Tallswife]

Just wanted to say I have found your information fascinating and have enjoyed learning more about it. Thank you.

Gus

Thank you kind Sir! :grin: