WOW! Information overload

[Paul R]

I have been mostly lurking here, picking up tips for my next build. After just checking for new posts for a while, I decided to start back through old posts. What a gold mine. If there is anyone else like me,go to it.

I restocked an old TC Hawken I had picked up with a wrecked barrel. I put a GM drop-in with a 1in28 twist because I thought that was the way I wanted to go. The TC stock didn't fit me worth a darn so that was why I restocked it. I went with a radical design (thumbhole) so that is why I haven't posted any pictures. I already made the mistake of talking about those pla***c patches here so I don't want to ruffle any more feathers. That novelty of that way of shooting didn't last too long, so I've started planning a new build.
I like a lot of the features of the Hawken style, so that will be the basis of my new build. I want a swamped barrel in .58 cal. that will be about the same length as my TC. The design will not be PC/HC, but will shoot PRB and be a flintlock. The closest profile I could find on the Rice site, that I liked, was the TOW Jaeger. I'm not trying to identify too closely with any one style, but pick better features to make what I want in a hunting rifle that will still look as though it could have been built 150 years ago. At least except for the stock in back of the lock. That will be a thumbhole with a soft recoil pad. At my age, I really am into my creature comforts and that is the way shooting is most comfortable to me.

I do apologise if I have offended anyones sensitivities, and I do hope I can continue to make use of this site as a resource as I get furthor into my build. I have not run accross a better source of information that I will need as I progress.

Paul

 

[rabjr]

There is a custom muzzleloader made up there in Canada about what your looking for, short and light. I want to say Clark rifles but I'm unable to find the site. Maybe you've heard of them? Would be worth a look anyway. I remember pic's on that site of them shooting Moose with one.

 

[rabjr]

Found it,

http://www.clarkindustries.on.ca/flintlocks.html

 

[necchi]

" After just checking for new posts for a while, I decided to start back through old posts. What a gold mine."

It is! :thumbsup:
I advise new folks to check the vast library of archive here and some take offence, they want the answer handed to'm on a Silver plater and served from the Left!
I find answers here in the back pages many times to be more informative because it's not a current debate, and when ya find the same answer several times it's agood bet it's the real deal.
Don't be afraid to ask, but keep diggin man, :hatsoff:

 

[Birddog6]

I'm not trying to identify too closely with any one style, but pick better features to make what I want in a hunting rifle that will still look as though it could have been built 150 years ago. At least except for the stock in back of the lock. That will be a thumbhole with a soft recoil pad.
Paul

That is impossible... That is like saying you want a Model A Ford to look Authentic ...., but you are going to put a Dodge Charger body from the windshield back ?

You may build it & you may like it, but with a thumbhole in the stock & a recoil pad, it is not going to replicate anything prior to 1970... sorry..... :idunno:

Keith Lisle

 

[rafterob]

Sounds like a challenging hybrid build. If you are comfortable enough with your skills you should be able to pull it off. I think a Jaeger style for the basis of your build is the way to go.I would try to print off some pictures of the stock profiles and sketch over it to see how your concept will fit. You may have to start with a blank to get exactly what you want. You would not be the first to build a "radical" muzzleloader on a traditional design. Rice Barrels makes a nice swamped jaeger barrel you should look at. If you are going halfstock you might consider a tapered octagon to round barrel. In my opinion a swamped barrel on a halfstock would look kinda "off", but then again so would a thumbhole.Take some time sketching out different layouts to help you decide.

 

[matt denison]

"...features of the Hawken style, so that will be the basis of my new build. I want a swamped barrel..."


A basic feature of a Hawkin's is that they are half stock guns with an under rib to hold the ram rod pipes. Try to visualise how an under rib will hook up with a swamped (tapered and flared) barrel. You may have to re think the swamped barrel.

 

[David W.]

A tapered barrel is where you want to go if you have a patent breech.

 

[Paul R]

Yes, it will be a radical build. It will be a fullstock with a hooked breech, using wedges, not pins, to hold the barrel in place. As has been said, I really don't think a swamped barrel would look right on a halfstock. There were original Hawkens with fullstock and swamped barrels. I don't know how to post direct links, but if you go to my previous thread 'Swaged Barrel Channels' dated 01-08-11, right now at the bottom of page 3. There is some discussion on this build.
The jeager barrel is maybe not the most appropriate swamp, but it is the closest to the length I wanted. I chose the Rice TOTW over the Rice Chambers because of the slightly larger waist.
I have already proved the stock design on my TC Hawken rebuild. It is a blend of the original TC halfstock and an aftermarket thumbhole I put on my dads 30-06. I had never shot that CF more comfortably or more accurately prior to that restocking. That is why I chose to go that route when I restocked my TC.
If ZONNIE gives the OK, I will attempt to post pictures. After all, it is still a ML with a sidelock.
The stock will, of necesity, be a 'from the plank' scratch build. It may be possible to find a blank that would work, but as a furniture builder, I have access to warehouses full of hardwood lumber. Some of it is even very nice.

Paul

 

[fitter]

Doesn't matter if the barrel is straight, tapered, or swamped for a patent breech.

 

[Paul R]

Please see my previous thread 'Swaged Barrel Channel' that is now near the bottom of page 3. There were many variations in original Hawken rifles.

Paul

 

[Paul R]

You are absolutely correct, and 'authentic' is one word I would never use on this build. It will be a flint lock in .58 cal., using PRB, for, if I may borrow the word from another poster, 'Whompability'.
There were full stock Hawkens with swamped barrels, but the jeager I plan to use doesn't really fit that style. I chose to use it for the balance.
This build will be very similar to the restocking I did to my TC Hawken which was not very PC/HC even before I started. Though it is nothing like the MLs on this site, people immediately recognize it as a traditional ML and it gets a lot of very nice compliments and generates a lot of interest in muzzleloading itself. Better people get some exposure to traditional ML,rather then those other abominations some guys are trying to turn into high power rifles.

Though our paths are somewhat divergent, we are both into making the same kind of smoke.

Paul

 

[Paul R]

Sorry, in my previous post to you, should have read 'Swamped Barrel Channel' near the bottom of page 3.

Paul

 

[jsn]

If you are going for a comfortable shooter that is authentic I would invest in a club butt piece with a large flat butt plate at least 2 1/4 wide. That makes basicly the same type of grip you want with lower recoil preasure and it looks authentic to f&I war.

If authenticity is desired this would probably be your best choice :wink:

Something a little like this (follow the link) Club Butt Fowler

 

[LaBonte]

"...features of the Hawken style, so that will be the basis of my new build. I want a swamped barrel..."


A basic feature of a Hawkin's is that they are half stock guns with an under rib to hold the ram rod pipes. Try to visualise how an under rib will hook up with a swamped (tapered and flared) barrel. You may have to re think the swamped barrel.

No need to to visualize - this original Hawken has a 37" long swamped barrel: 1.125" breech, 15/16" at the swamp and 1" at the muzzle - 7 grooves 1/48" twist.

There are at least a couple more half-stock Hawkens that I know of with swamped barrels and there are several English sporting rifles of the 1780-1840 period so built. But then again most swamped barrels of the post-1800 period at least are less swamped than those commonly built today and the Jaeger barrel IMO is far too swamped for this build - you will more than likely have troubles with the Ramrod positionig due to the large flare.
With that short of a barrel why not use a taper that will work just as well for balance, would simplify your builf, and be less expensive???

Also far from all Hawkens were half-stocks especially prior to 1840, but even later they made many full-stocks.

 

[Herb]

Paul, before you finalize your design, I recommend you read "Patent Breech, Yes or No", in the Flintlock forum, 03/08/10. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/244698

 

[Paul R]

Thank you for the referrel to the thread on Patent Breeches. As I mentioned when I started this thread, I had been reading through back posts for the wealth of information there, but there is just so much that I read mainly the ones that appeared to apply to me. I had missed this one.

It appears that the jury is still out on the issue of patent breeches. It doesn't seem that the issue is so much on the performance of the gun with a patent breech as the reliability of the charge going off. My own experience is with my TC percussion w/a GM barrel that misfired on the only shot I had at a deer, last season, because I had failed to bump the breech after dumping the powder in, before I seated the bullet.

My take on the issue, after reading the thread, is that all the patent breeches shown seemed to be somewhat funnel shaped with the touch hole at the small end. This is where crud knocked loose during swabbing would collect or powder would bridge, creating the potential for misfires. The flat faced plug with the touch hole in the side of the barrel would have a much lower risk for that problem.

That is not to be construed as a reason to not use patent breeches. I do want to use a hooked breech on my build because I really do prefer to remove my barrels for cleaning. A quick look at TOTW list of breech plugs showed that I don't have much choice but to use a patent breech for the barrel I want to use with a 1.125" breech. My thought is to bore the hole in the plug to the maximum diameter that would not affect the integrity of the threads and finish it off with a flat bottom. The end of the hole could be flared to just under the barrel bore dia. I am not engineer enough to determine what those sizes could be. And, of course, the volumn of that hole in the plug could not be greater then that of the smallest charge of powder used.

Just my $.02 worth. If I'm way out in left field, somebody will let me know, & hopefully with facts and logic, not just opinion.

Paul

 

[Herb]

The powder chamber holes in these breeches are cylindrical but small- a quarter inch in some, but 5/16" or 3/8" in diameter in the one you would use for a Hawken. They are not funneled or radiused at the front end, and this is where powder bridges. If you drill that hole larger, 7/16" or maybe 1/2", there will be no powder bridging and 1t will be easier to clean. And polish it smooth and radius the front edge.

Track's part named "Hawken 1" Flint Breech and Tang", but part No.Plug-FH-18-3 {3/4-16 thread for 1 1/8" octagon}, or Plug-FH-18-7 (7/8-14 thread for 1 1/8" octagon} are the "patent breeches" you can choose from.

But you do not have to use a Patent Breech. There is "American Fowler 1 1/8" Hooked Breech, Plug-AF-18-3 for 3/4-16 thread for 1 1/8" barrel or Plug-AF-18-7 for 7/8-14 thread for 1 1/8" barrel. Here the 5/8" long hooked plug threads into the end of your barrel and the barrel can be unhooked for cleaning. The Flash hole is threaded into the side of the barrel ahead of the plug, like any other flintlock. The advantage of this would be about 1" shorter barrel and several ounces of weight less, plus easier to clean, not having that inch long small powder chamber. Rice's barrels have 1/2" long breech plugs, so if you got one without a plug fitted, you just cut that 5/8" plug off 1/8" at the nose and fit it. If makes a nice flintlock fit, the lock bolt coming nicely behind the end of the barrel into the lock bolster. If you get a Rice barrel, ask them about this.