Turning a Pedersoli Bess into a Dublin Castle Short Land Musket

[dave_person]

Hi,
I am working over the rear ramrod pipe prior to inletting. The Pedersoli part has a narrow tang that needs to be widened. I annealed it and then peened the tang to widen the swelled portion. A little filing and it looks right. Then I made and temporarily fitted a ramrod retaining spring. Short land pattern Besses with steel rammers had these springs mounted in the rear pipe. Earlier patterns with big wooden rods did not need them. This a feature you will never find on any commercial repros.

They are very simple to make. I use very thin spring steel stock (1/32" - 3/64" thick). I anneal it then cut a strip with metal shears. I clean up the strip, round one end and drill a tiny hole in the other. Then I drill out the back side of the pipe a little wider for a depth of 5/16" to accommodate the thickness of the spring and rivet on the inside of the pipe. I then drill the pipe for the rivet and use a tiny steel flat headed tack for the rivet. I bend the spring to suit and temporarily install it to make sure the rod clears the rivet and spring. I won't install it permanently until after I inlet the pipe and harden and temper the spring. When the pipe is inlet, there is a slot cut under the tang and into the ramrod hole to clear the full length of the spring.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
I am working over the rear ramrod pipe prior to inletting. The Pedersoli part has a narrow tang that needs to be widened. I annealed it and then peened the tang to widen the swelled portion. A little filing and it looks right. Then I made and temporarily fitted a ramrod retaining spring. Short land pattern Besses with steel rammers had these springs mounted in the rear pipe. Earlier patterns with big wooden rods did not need them. This a feature you will never find on any commercial repros.

They are very simple to make. I use very thin spring steel stock (1/32" - 3/64" thick). I anneal it then cut a strip with metal shears. I clean up the strip, round one end and drill a tiny hole in the other. Then I drill out the back side of the pipe a little wider for a depth of 5/16" to accommodate the thickness of the spring and rivet on the inside of the pipe. I then drill the pipe for the rivet and use a tiny steel flat headed tack for the rivet. I bend the spring to suit and temporarily install it to make sure the rod clears the rivet and spring. I won't install it permanently until after I inlet the pipe and harden and temper the spring. When the pipe is inlet, there is a slot cut under the tang and into the ramrod hole to clear the full length of the spring.

dave

such wealth of information dave ! Thanks so much

so the rammer spring isn't on the 1756 bess? My kit doesnt have one id assume not.

how does the spring interact with the with stock entry pipe inlet? Does more room need to be made for clearance?

 

[dave_person]

such wealth of information dave ! Thanks so much

so the rammer spring isn't on the 1756 bess? My kit doesnt have one id assume not.

how does the spring interact with the with stock entry pipe inlet? Does more room need to be made for clearance?

Hi Nick,
Read my post. I explain that.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi Nick,
Read my post. I explain that.

dave

Hi Nick,
Read my post. I explain that.

dave

I see now, the pipe is made bigger. On a third model i have by ima the rammer spring has more of a spoon shape and doesnt move all the much when the rammer engages it. I suppose its too large for the pipe.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi Guys,
I inletted the barrel lugs and drilled for the pins. As promised, I show how I did it. I used the lugs that came with the Pedersoli barrel and of course they all had holes already drilled. So how do you deal with that? Not hard but just requires accurate measuring and a little skill. The first tip is not to leave a lot of excess wood on the stock. I always urge folks to trim off excess wood early before installing components and drilling pin holes. Having written that, I want to add that I understand the reluctance of inexperienced makers to remove wood too quickly. I have a lot of experience and know what should be trimmed and what should be left but new builders are just learning that. I get it. I was once a new maker too so I suggest you work slowly but really think about your process and how to make it better so you can learn from your experience. Trimming off excess wood along the fore stock means I have less thickness to drill through and less potential for drill deviation in lining up the existing holes in the lugs. So the first step is thinning the fore stock and then squaring the sides with the top of the barrel channel and ramrod channel. I band saw off the excess and then use a plane to true the sides. I inlet the lugs into the stock. I like it done nicely and precisely as were the originals and not just a bunch of hogged out depressions and slots.

Then using the barrel with lugs attached as a guide, I locate the centers of the lug holes on the stock.

I draw a perpendicular line down the side of the stock marking its location with a square. I measure the distance from the top of the barrel to the center of the hole using calipers.

Then I use a square to measure that depth on the stock. This is where it is important the sides are square with the top of the barrel channel.

I punch holes on both sides of the stock with an awl to mark the position for my drill.

I use an undersized drill, shortened in the chuck so it flexes very little, to drill from both sides into the center of the stock and no further.

Next I place the barrel in the stock and redrill the holes with the same drill to make sure they line up with the existing hole in the lug. Once assured they line up. I drill the hole again with a full sized drill for the barrel pins.

The result is a perfectly lined up pin hole.

The lug for the forward sling swivel requires a hole to pass a 6-32 screw so I finish the drilling with a #25 drill.

I'll replace the Pedersoli swivels with correct ones either from commercial castings or I may forge my own. They are actually easy to make.
Job done!

dave

Your new stock looks excellent Dave.

This is making me want to restock my pedersoli Bess.

The new stock looks much stronger in the spots that concern me on my pedersoli, the wrist being longer and the lock pannel between the trigger guard and and bottom edge of the Lockplate.

Was the swell on an original second model significantly bigger than the Pedersoli stock swell?

 

[dave_person]

Hi Nick,
The biggest problem with the Pedersoli stock is that it varies greatly from real Brown Besses and would never pass ordnance inspection. You simply cannot make it right. Nor can you make the Japanese Bess or India-made Besses right. I think some folks delude themselves into thinking those guns can be made right but they waste their time. The worst part is that none of those poor commercial versions honor the skilled workers that actually made the original muskets. They are an insult to the memory of those skilled workman. I am so glad that I never have to settle for the commercial crap offered.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Got more done. I inlet all the ramrod pipes. The rear pipe is most challenging but not very hard. Just go slow and use inletting black to mark where wood needs to be removed. I apply it sparingly with a tootbrush.

One feature of the rear pipe is that it has a flare toward the rear making it look like it is not inlet all the way. You have to understand that and just gauge the depth on inlet by the clear passage of the steel ramrod.

The middle pipes are barrel shaped and easy to inlet.

The long trumpet shaped front pipe may seem intimidating but it is not. I simply use a small gouge, a small fish tailed gouge, a carving knife, and a 1/8" flat chisel to cut the space for the lugs and then the tube.

It is not hard except this black walnut sucks and can not be carved in certain directions because of the grain. I hate black walnut.

dave

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi Nick,
The biggest problem with the Pedersoli stock is that it varies greatly from real Brown Besses and would never pass ordnance inspection. You simply cannot make it right. Nor can you make the Japanese Bess or India-made Besses right. I think some folks delude themselves into thinking those guns can be made right but they waste their time. The worst part is that none of those poor commercial versions honor the skilled workers that actually made the original muskets. They are an insult to the memory of those skilled workman. I am so glad that I never have to settle for the commercial crap offered.

dave

Yea, I agree Dave. I’ve never been a fan of defarbing factory guns to make them more authentic, it just never works and the cost ins’t always recouped. What your client is doing is the best way, customized restocking to its original and correct style adds the authenticity and I’d have to say value to the musket as well, as it will be more sturdy and stronger.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
More done today. I fitted the nose cap. The distance from the muzzle to nose cap on short land pattern Besses is usually 4 1/2" . The nose cap is cast and is 7/8" long. The Pedersoli cap is over an inch long so it needed grinding back to the correct length. After grinding, I use the cap to measure the position accounting for the thickness of the front.

Then I cut the edge of the inlet with my Japanese flush cut saw, which has no kerf allowing me to cut a very precise edge.

I rarely have to go back and clean up the cut with chisels or files. I pare off the wood with chisels and rasps until the cap fits snugly. It is anchored with a steel screw on the Pedersoli but a brass rivet is historically correct.

Next up was drilling the barrel tang bolt. I used the hole in the tang as a guide and drew some lines on the stock to guide me, and then drilled the hole with a #7 drill and a hand drill.

It came out just right. The photo above shows the center line on the bottom of the stock as well as drilling for the boss on the trigger plate.
Next up was installing the trigger plate. Before doing that, I need to discuss some design issues, all of which I resolved in my drawings of the musket. On real Besses, the rear of the trigger plate is anchored to the stock by the bolt that holds the trigger guard in place behind the bow and threads into the wrist plate. This is another feature that Pedersoli and Miroku really mucked up and it matters. I'll explain in a minute but first I inlet the trigger plate positioning it so that the tang bolt hits the boss dead center and the trigger will hit the sear of the lock about half way back on the trigger bar. I traced the plate with a pencil and cut it in.

Then using the trigger slot on the plate as a guide, I drilled a series of holes the depth of the trigger and then routed out the wood between the hole with a Dremel tool and router bit. The trigger went in easy, however, I won't drill for the trigger pin until I have permanently settled on the lower profile of the stock. Before I do that I can always inlet the trigger plate deeper if I must. Don't rush these things is my strong advice.

Now let's consider some important design details. On original Besses, the bolt holding the wrist plate in place also anchors the rear of the trigger plate and the trigger guard behind the bow. This is an elegant and brilliant feature. You can see on the Pedersoli cast trigger plate that the proper hole in the trigger plate was filled before casting.

So they didn't even faithfully copy the original they were given. This is important because the position of that hole determines the location of the wrist plate. So Pedersoli had to extend the wrist longer than the original Besses to fit their wrist plate making their stock look really awkward and wrong. Miroku, apparently not knowing any better followed suit. The photos below show the Pedersoli stock.

The next photos show the correct orientation on my stock. The dark line above the wrist plate is the extent of the carved apron around the barrel tang. The other photos show the correct orientation of the bolt going through the wrist from the trigger guard, through the trigger plate and into the wrist plate. All of which I planned out in my drawings.

The changes made by Pedersoli and Miroku irredeemably ruin the historical architecture of the gun.

dave

dave

 

[PathfinderNC]

Dave, my understanding of the wrist plate (I always called it a "Thumb piece") was that it's not just a decorative element but is that it was to reinforce the wrist. It, together with the trigger plate below 'sandwiched' the wrist with the bolt running through & securing them, like a sandwich. Is this one of it's functions?

 

[dave_person]

Hi Bob,
I don't think so. They left the wrist plate off the marine and militia muskets probably to save money but they must not have been too concerned about strength. Remember the upgraded pattern 1759 marine and militia musket was the model for the short land pattern Besses. I think the wrist plate was there to use as a surface for engraving company and rack number marks. Brown Bess wrists were quite thick and I don't really think anyone thought they required a wrist plate to add strength. Bob, there are a lot of myths about Besses including about the name.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Got more done. I installed the butt plate. Many folks are intimidated by these and other British style butt plates but they are not hard to inlet. It just requires some thinking and following a logical sequence. Here is how I do it. First, I clean up and flatten all the edges of the plate that will contact the wood. I mark the inner edge of the butt plate on the stock. It does not have to be perfect, just fairly close. Then I determine the location and depth of the primary shoulder of the plate and cut the stock accordingly.

I place the plate in position and outline the tang on the top in pencil, knowing full well that the mortise will migrate inward as I inlet the plate.

This is a very important point to make because most English style butt plates can be moved inward without risking gaps because they progressively get narrower toward the front. German and French butt plates often widen and swell, making that impossible. The little "button" on long land pattern muskets can be accommodated by bending the end of the tang up and out of the way until the plate is almost fully inlet.
After the primary shoulder is formed, I begin inletting the tang in stages from the rear.

Finally, it all sits down in place.

I drilled for the screw holes and will finish them off later.
Next was drilling the lock bolts and positioning the side plate. Remember, the lock plate is already drilled and tapped for the lock bolts and holes already drilled in the side plate. That might seem a problem but not really. First, I put the lock plate in place and drill through the rear lock bolt hole. The drill is smaller than the hole so I don't damage the threads. I do this with a hand drill and some penciled guideline on the top of the stock. I measure the distance from the top of the barrel tang to the center of the lock bolt hole in the plate and use that measurement to mark the location of the hole on the side plate side. I drill halfway from the lock side and then again from the side plate side. The hole matched up perfectly. Then I removed the lock plate and drilled out the hole to clear the bolt. I placed the side plate on the stock and inserted the rear bolt threading it into the lock plate. Next, I drilled halfway through the stock for the forward lock bolt using the hole in the lock plate as a guide. Again, I just used a hand drill. I measure the distance down from the lip of the barrel channel to the center of the forward bolt hole in the lock plate. Because the top of my barrel channel is square to the sides, I then measured that same distance down on the side plate side and marked it on the stock as a horizontal line. Then I simply rotated the side plate, which was attached by the rear bolt until that line was in the middle of the hole in the side plate. I marked that spot with an awl and then drilled at that spot from the side plate side until I hit the hole from the lock side. It was perfect.

The side plate is oriented just right and I modified its outline to match those on Dublin Castle muskets. A key feature is the sharp angle at the apex of the curves on the bottom of the plate under the rear lock bolt. On Tower muskets, that curve is graceful and gentle, on Dublin Castle muskets it is often angular and crude.

More to come.

dave

 

[PathfinderNC]

Hi Bob,
I don't think so. They left the wrist plate off the marine and militia muskets probably to save money but they must not have been too concerned about strength. Remember the upgraded pattern 1759 marine and militia musket was the model for the short land pattern Besses. I think the wrist plate was there to use as a surface for engraving company and rack number marks. Brown Bess wrists were quite thick and I don't really think anyone thought they required a wrist plate to add strength. Bob, there are a lot of myths about Besses including about the name.

dave

Thanks Dave. It was just conjecture on my part, and seemed to make sense (to me at least). I was also considering that those thumb pieces/wrist plates may have also been the last vestiges of military firearm decoration, as the pragmatic needs and cost associations of material and labor ended it all.

 

[FlinterNick]

Thanks Dave. It was just conjecture on my part, and seemed to make sense (to me at least). I was also considering that those thumb pieces/wrist plates may have also been the last vestiges of military firearm decoration, as the pragmatic needs and cost associations of material and labor ended it all.

Goldstein’s book mentions that the thumb piece weakened the stock at the wrist (page 29) in reference to the 1730 long land pattern bess musket. “Because of this screw, the stock was further weakened at this point” (Goldstein, page 29).

French guns before 1763 were known for being weak at the wrist, the set up of the Roman nose stock was not ideal for drilling purposes. They had no wrist plates.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Goldstein’s book mentions that the thumb piece weakened the stock at the wrist (page 29) in reference to the 1730 long land pattern bess musket. “Because of this screw, the stock was further weakened at this point” (Goldstein, page 29).

French guns before 1763 were known for being weak at the wrist, the set up of the Roman nose stock was not ideal for drilling purposes. They had no wrist plates.

Thanks for that info. So my guess the thumb piece and the trigger plate would have acted as a clamp at the wrist was off. (I always knew that engineering was not my field )

 

[FlinterNick]

Thanks for that info. So my guess the thumb piece and the trigger plate would have acted as a clamp at the wrist was off. (I always knew that engineering was not my field )

Early ordinance systems had their ideas and changed things over, the British were pretty standard with the wrist plate through the 1800’s when they abandoned it on the later third models, it was a purse cost saving measure. No plate means less brass, one less fixture, and less handwork.

The final British flintlock musket (new land pattern), which is technically not a Brown Bess that had a wrist that blended directly into the comb provided added strength, somewhat like the 1816 US musket.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
Got more done. I installed the butt plate. Many folks are intimidated by these and other British style butt plates but they are not hard to inlet. It just requires some thinking and following a logical sequence. Here is how I do it. First, I clean up and flatten all the edges of the plate that will contact the wood. I mark the inner edge of the butt plate on the stock. It does not have to be perfect, just fairly close. Then I determine the location and depth of the primary shoulder of the plate and cut the stock accordingly.

I place the plate in position and outline the tang on the top in pencil, knowing full well that the mortise will migrate inward as I inlet the plate.

This is a very important point to make because most English style butt plates can be moved inward without risking gaps because they progressively get narrower toward the front. German and French butt plates often widen and swell, making that impossible. The little "button" on long land pattern muskets can be accommodated by bending the end of the tang up and out of the way until the plate is almost fully inlet.
After the primary shoulder is formed, I begin inletting the tang in stages from the rear.

Finally, it all sits down in place.

I drilled for the screw holes and will finish them off later.
Next was drilling the lock bolts and positioning the side plate. Remember, the lock plate is already drilled and tapped for the lock bolts and holes already drilled in the side plate. That might seem a problem but not really. First, I put the lock plate in place and drill through the rear lock bolt hole. The drill is smaller than the hole so I don't damage the threads. I do this with a hand drill and some penciled guideline on the top of the stock. I measure the distance from the top of the barrel tang to the center of the lock bolt hole in the plate and use that measurement to mark the location of the hole on the side plate side. I drill halfway from the lock side and then again from the side plate side. The hole matched up perfectly. Then I removed the lock plate and drilled out the hole to clear the bolt. I placed the side plate on the stock and inserted the rear bolt threading it into the lock plate. Next, I drilled halfway through the stock for the forward lock bolt using the hole in the lock plate as a guide. Again, I just used a hand drill. I measure the distance down from the lip of the barrel channel to the center of the forward bolt hole in the lock plate. Because the top of my barrel channel is square to the sides, I then measured that same distance down on the side plate side and marked it on the stock as a horizontal line. Then I simply rotated the side plate, which was attached by the rear bolt until that line was in the middle of the hole in the side plate. I marked that spot with an awl and then drilled at that spot from the side plate side until I hit the hole from the lock side. It was perfect.

The side plate is oriented just right and I modified its outline to match those on Dublin Castle muskets. A key feature is the sharp angle at the apex of the curves on the bottom of the plate under the rear lock bolt. On Tower muskets, that curve is graceful and gentle, on Dublin Castle muskets it is often angular and crude.

More to come.

dave

Nice job Dave ! May I ask what kind of saw do you use for cutting your blank stocks ?

 

[dave_person]

Hoo Boy Howdy!!! There's a Bess in there!!

She's still pregnant and a lot of wood has to go to deliver this baby but its coming along nicely. For you you Bess aficionados, you might not have noticed the butt plate has no lug under the forward extension for a cross pin. That is because the butt plate I am using is a copy from a marine and militia musket, which is the same as those on the pattern 1769 short land muskets minus the lug. It is really not needed but I will install a cross pin in the stock for cosmetic appearance. This black walnut is not as good as I originally thought. It is very splintery and I have to really be careful with my tools. When finish is applied, it will be fine but I do wish it was English walnut. I am not going to use the Miroku trigger guard because the forward lug for the swivel is way too small and not authentic. I ordered a different guard, which should also have extra thick brass like the Dublin Castle muskets.

Nick, I use a Grizzly 15" band saw with roller guides. It is very powerful and the large throat really helps.

Gus and Nick, book alert! I am reading "Noble Volunteers" by Don Hagist. He is the managing editor for the Journal of the American Revolution (www.allthingsliberty.com). It is an in depth study of life as a British soldier during the Rev War. It really up ends a lot of myths and is well worth having in your libraries. Gus, you will appreciate that Cuthbertson was a writer of military guides but none of those guides or any other "guides for the young soldier" were official products. They were just the author's opinions and did not necessarily influence British soldiers very much. Hagist includes tables written at the time showing the heights of soldiers in regiments and you can clearly see how the tall guys went to the grenadiers and the shorter nimble guys went to the light companies. It is also interesting that recruiters were encouraged to only accept men >5' 7" tall. Moreover, they were not the "scum of the earth" that Wellesley called them but a real cross section of trades, laborers, and even professional people. The most common motivation to join was that they simply wanted to be soldiers.

dave

 

[Brokennock]

Hoo Boy Howdy!!! There's a Bess in there!!

She's still pregnant and a lot of wood has to go to deliver this baby but its coming along nicely. For you you Bess aficionados, you might not have noticed the butt plate has no lug under the forward extension for a cross pin. That is because the butt plate I am using is a copy from a marine and militia musket, which is the same as those on the pattern 1769 short land muskets minus the lug. It is really not needed but I will install a cross pin in the stock for cosmetic appearance. This black walnut is not as good as I originally thought. It is very splintery and I have to really be careful with my tools. When finish is applied, it will be fine but I do wish it was English walnut. I am not going to use the Miroku trigger guard because the forward lug for the swivel is way too small and not authentic. I ordered a different guard, which should also have extra thick brass like the Dublin Castle muskets.

Nick, I use a Grizzly 15" band saw with roller guides. It is very powerful and the large throat really helps.

Gus and Nick, book alert! I am reading "Noble Volunteers" by Don Hagist. He is the managing editor for the Journal of the American Revolution (www.allthingsliberty.com). It is an in depth study of life as a British soldier during the Rev War. It really up ends a lot of myths and is well worth having in your libraries. Gus, you will appreciate that Cuthbertson was a writer of military guides but none of those guides or any other "guides for the young soldier" were official products. They were just the author's opinions and did not necessarily influence British soldiers very much. Hagist includes tables written at the time showing the heights of soldiers in regiments and you can clearly see how the tall guys went to the grenadiers and the shorter nimble guys went to the light companies. It is also interesting that recruiters were encouraged to only accept men >5' 7" tall. Moreover, they were not the "scum of the earth" that Wellesley called them but a real cross section of trades, laborers, and even professional people. The most common motivation to join was that they simply wanted to be soldiers.

dave

Wow, the lighting in those photos really shows that cold purple color, please hurry and hit that would with the yellow dye. Lol.

 

[DuncNZ]

Dave, my understanding of the wrist plate (I always called it a "Thumb piece") was that it's not just a decorative element but is that it was to reinforce the wrist. It, together with the trigger plate below 'sandwiched' the wrist with the bolt running through & securing them, like a sandwich. Is this one of it's functions?

A lot of wrist plates were engraved with unit markings .