Rehardening frizzens - one size fits all? Musings for metallurgy masterminds....

FlinterNick · Mar 23, 2024

James Kibler said:
1350 F is too low of a temperature to quench from. Little to no hardening will occur.

The temperature on the oven i lower to 1350, for about 25-30 min. The temperature is not held at 1350. I have a small paragon kiln, it takes around 20 min for the temperature to drop 50-100 degrees with the door shut. I’m not sure what the exact quenching temperature is, but it’s not 1650. It works fine for me.

I’ve had trouble with oil quenches for frizzens, still working on that. I’ve tried parks aaa with some success.

FlinterNick · Mar 23, 2024

BeardedGunsmith said:
Music wire is cheap. Ironically they sell tig wire that's specific for laying down a hardened surface and it's ridiculously expensive. I haven't tested the rockwell C of the music wire but it has to be at least 60 or so once tigged.

Do you normalize the frizzen before you TIG weld it ? You just weld it hardened ?

BeardedGunsmith · Mar 23, 2024

FlinterNick said:
Do you normalize the frizzen before you TIG weld it ? You just weld it hardened ?

I just grind out a good divot with it as is, then tig weld it in with the music wire and regrind it flat and finish it up. They are woodpecker lips, hard.

bpd303 · Mar 23, 2024

FlinterNick said:
Why not just re-sole or re-face with some 1095 steel ?

Or like I have done old used hack saw blade with the teeth ground off and shaped then silver solder it on.

FlinterNick · Mar 23, 2024

BeardedGunsmith said:
I just grind out a good divot with it as is, then tig weld it in with the music wire and regrind it flat and finish it up. They are woodpecker lips, hard.

I’ve had good success resoling with 1095 and brazing with silicon bronze MIG wire and small gas welding torch. But I normalize the frizzen first, because the oxy acetylene torch gets a little too hard when welding.

FlinterNick · Mar 23, 2024

bpd303 said:
Or like I have done old used hack saw blade with the teeth ground off and shaped then silver solder it on.

I knew a gunmaker that resold with a titanium shim, that worked real well. But I won’t try it.

flatcreek · Mar 24, 2024

Hardened one with Cherry Red and it worked good.

James Kibler · Mar 24, 2024

Cherry Red, Kasenite etc. equals very shallow case…

FlinterNick · Mar 24, 2024

flatcreek said:
Hardened one with Cherry Red and it worked good.

There’s something in cherry red that’s missing, a key component, I think potassium ferrocyanide I read in a muzzleloader article. I use track of the wolf’s product.

flatcreek · Mar 24, 2024

As usual gov. regs made them change it. Don't know how it compares to the old stuff, but it seemed to work for me.

FlinterNick · Mar 24, 2024

flatcreek said:
As usual gov. regs made them change it. Don't know how it compares to the old stuff, but it seemed to work for me.

I had some cherry red 8 years ago, it never worked on frizzens for me. I used up on hardening And tempering screw heads.

SDSmlf · Mar 24, 2024

flatcreek said:
Hardened one with Cherry Red and it worked good.

We tried both Kasenite and Cherry Red per the manufacturers’ instructions and found effective hardness depth of no more than .001” to .002” when checked by our metrology department. And I remember the Cherry Red didn’t ’case hardened’ the surface of mild steel enough to even be considered ‘case hardened’ by industry standards. Basically a scratch resistant surface and not useful for case hardening a frizzen face.

But don’t let this stop anyone from using the stuff.

Pete G · Mar 24, 2024

flatcreek said:
As usual gov. regs made them change it. Don't know how it compares to the old stuff, but it seemed to work for me.

It will work for a short while, but not for long.

Commodore Swab · Mar 24, 2024

l'Abeille said:
Or, put differently... if I could sell you a robot that hardened frizzens for you, what options would you want it to have?have

Considering that there would be all kinds of steel and a variety of different shapes. I have a frizzen (wall gun) as large as the entire lock of another (pocket pistol). There are miquelets, snaphaunces, and many others. Some may be excellent steel while others may barely be allowed to be called steel it's a pretty wide area to cover. Short of rebuilding (shoeing) as a standard you must use some type of compound. Compound works on poor and good steel alike so that is your best option. The remaining factors for options for the "robot" include the ability to accommodate the various shapes and sizes.

Sam squanch · Mar 24, 2024

Just sole it. Easier for the home workshop guy. Or get one of those depleted uranium frizzens!

FlinterNick · Mar 24, 2024

Pete G said:
It will work for a short while, but not for long.

Personally I think cherry red is almost useless, certainly not worth 40 bucks for 300 grams. For mild steels and alloys such as 1045 or 8620 or 4140, i think case hardening (in a case, packing with charcoal and compound) is the best option or re-soleing or even taking an old file and shim and welding it to an old frizzen as someone suggested above.

They resoled 200-300 years ago, and case hardened with iron, forge welded old files to frizzens, today we seem to think we’re smarter than them however their methods worked better just fine with inferior materials and fewer resources.

bpd303 · Mar 24, 2024

James Kibler said:
Cherry Red, Kasenite etc. equals very shallow case…

Absolutely however for the majority of us who shoot a particular flintlock only occasionally it is a good viable option.
If the flintlock is going to be shot a lot then resoled is probably the best option other than making or buying a new frizzen that is hardened through & through.
Granted making a new frizzen is beyond the ability of most and those of us who have a forge and can forge one out of "good steel" , which I have done twice over the years for restoring an original, it's a job that I never look forward to.

Rawhide67 · Mar 24, 2024

Never had any luck with cherry red. I have wrapped the frizzen in leather, stuck it in a soup can packed with leather and put it in the glowing coals of a fire for an hour. Then drop it in a tub of cool water.

This technique was shared with me by someone older than dirt who said that the way they used to do it. I don't know, but its worked 3 different times for me.

bpd303 · Mar 24, 2024

That is the best and traditional way to case harden steel. If I need to, I do that in my propane forge or the coal forge but it takes me cranking on the hand operated Champion blower to use the coal forge. :ghostly:

Rawhide67 · Mar 24, 2024

bpd303 said:
That is the best and traditional way to case harden steel. If I need to, I do that in my propane forge or the coal forge but it takes me cranking on the hand operated Champion blower to use the coal forge.

I've only done it during the winter when I already had a fire going in the fireplace. 2 birds with 1 stone. Usually a bit of scotch involved in the waiting process on a cold winter night

Rehardening frizzens - one size fits all? Musings for metallurgy masterminds....

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