Rehardening frizzens - one size fits all? Musings for metallurgy masterminds....

[steam1993]

I had my frizzen for my .50 harden, last year. Worked fine for a few shots, at a event where i was talking about flintlocks, went to cock the gun and the frizzen broke at the heal.

 

[LRB]

I had my frizzen for my .50 harden, last year. Worked fine for a few shots, at a event where i was talking about flintlocks, went to cock the gun and the frizzen broke at the heal.

Did you anneal the heel area after hardening?

 

[rich pierce]

There’s waay too much hardening of frizzens by people with very little experience in hardening and tempering steel and who don’t have much knowledge outside of what they get online.

First is assuming the frizzen needs hardening. Not getting sparks? TEST for frizzen hardness before deciding that’s the issue.

Second is not understanding the limitations of kasenit and cherry red, as outlined above. It hardens less than paper thin. But there’s always the possibility that the frizzen had enough carbon to harden through and through when surface hardening and quenching.

Then there are those who don’t think tempering is required, especially at the toe and where the face meets the pan cover.

We are in the times of YouTube and Internet forums where many think they can get a bit of advice and do anything. It’s easy to end up worse off than before the “fix” was started.

 

[FlinterNick]

There’s waay too much hardening of frizzens by people with very little experience in hardening and tempering steel and who don’t have much knowledge outside of what they get online.

First is assuming the frizzen needs hardening. Not getting sparks? TEST for frizzen hardness before deciding that’s the issue.

Second is not understanding the limitations of kasenit and cherry red, as outlined above. It hardens less than paper thin. But there’s always the possibility that the frizzen had enough carbon to harden through and through when surface hardening and quenching.

Then there are those who don’t think tempering is required, especially at the toe and where the face meets the pan cover.

We are in the times of YouTube and Internet forums where many think they can get a bit of advice and do anything. It’s easy to end up worse off than before the “fix” was started.

And there’s always the risk of a bad casting

 

[M. De Land]

There’s waay too much hardening of frizzens by people with very little experience in hardening and tempering steel and who don’t have much knowledge outside of what they get online.

First is assuming the frizzen needs hardening. Not getting sparks? TEST for frizzen hardness before deciding that’s the issue.

Second is not understanding the limitations of kasenit and cherry red, as outlined above. It hardens less than paper thin. But there’s always the possibility that the frizzen had enough carbon to harden through and through when surface hardening and quenching.

Then there are those who don’t think tempering is required, especially at the toe and where the face meets the pan cover.

We are in the times of YouTube and Internet forums where many think they can get a bit of advice and do anything. It’s easy to end up worse off than before the “fix” was started.

Yeah, drawing the temper is critical ! I do so when ever hardening even when case coloring. I think most of the trouble occurs with the quench in water instead of quench oil which can cause cracks from rapid contraction.
The other thing I think causes heat treating problems on occasion and was already mentioned is casting flaws although modern investment casting has come a long way in preventing this problem.

 

[Nav]

I quenched in oil. Admittedly, my experience is limited, but there is a happy medium between getting it as hard (and brittle) as you can and producing enough hardening to get good sparks.

I would like to see/know what the Seiler program is for their frizzens.

 

[LRB]

Yeah, drawing the temper is critical ! I do so when ever hardening even when case coloring. I think most of the trouble occurs with the quench in water instead of quench oil which can cause cracks from rapid contraction.
The other thing I think causes heat treating problems on occasion and was already mentioned is casting flaws although modern investment casting has come a long way in preventing this problem.

Water quenching is uneven because of the major vapor jacket that is created around the hot steel blocking even contact with the water. Uneven contraction/cooling is the major cause of cracking. A brine solution greatly lessens the risk as the salt instantly and evenly coats the steel and blocks the formation of a vapor jacket. The salt breaks it up about as fast as it forms. One 26oz box of sea salt in two gallons of distilled water and heated to about 100°F/110°F in a 2 gal. bucket. Drop the red-orange piece in, let to go the bottom and you're done. You might test a piece first, but I have never had a crack caused by a brine quench. Yes, casting flaws can happen but as said, are becoming a rarity. Another plus in brine quenching is that the part gains a tad more hardness. This info concerns my experience with 1095 steel only. It would probably work with the other 10xx and water hardening steels, but I would not try it with other alloys without experimenting first. For those who do not know, most water hardening steels have a W prefix. The O in O1 steel indicates oil hardening only, and then there is A indicating air hardening. 10xx steels do not need a prefix, because most can work well with oil or water/brine for most projects. 1095 requires a very fast cooling to be at its max hardness, although unless you are adventurous, I would suggest a fast oil like Parks 50, for 1095 blades, but brine for most other items needing more hardness. One other point on 1095 and some other steels. Once fully hardened, 1095 should have at least a slight temper. It can crack just laying around waiting on you.

 

[FlinterNick]

Water quenching is uneven because of the major vapor jacket that is created around the hot steel blocking even contact with the water. Uneven contraction/cooling is the major cause of cracking. A brine solution greatly lessens the risk as the salt instantly and evenly coats the steel and blocks the formation of a vapor jacket. The salt breaks it up about as fast as it forms. One 26oz box of sea salt in two gallons of distilled water and heated to about 100°F/110°F in a 2 gal. bucket. Drop the red-orange piece in, let to go the bottom and you're done. You might test a piece first, but I have never had a crack caused by a brine quench. Yes, casting flaws can happen but as said, are becoming a rarity. Another plus in brine quenching is that the part gains a tad more hardness. This info concerns my experience with 1095 steel only. It would probably work with the other 10xx and water hardening steels, but I would not try it with other alloys without experimenting first. For those who do not know, most water hardening steels have a W prefix. The O in O1 steel indicates oil hardening only, and then there is A indicating air hardening. 10xx steels do not need a prefix, because most can work well with oil or water/brine for most projects. 1095 requires a very fast cooling to be at its max hardness, although unless you are adventurous, I would suggest a fast oil like Parks 50, for 1095 blades, but brine for most other items needing more hardness. One other point on 1095 and some other steels. Once fully hardened, 1095 should have at least a slight temper. It can crack just laying around waiting on you.

Are there other types of brine quenches other than salt ? Hershel House used to mix in chicken manure into his water quenches.

 

[LRB]

I think there are different salts, but I think I would stick with sea salt, or even table salt. Does the chicken manure formula also prevent warp, or do you still have to point the blade north? Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

[M. De Land]

Are there other types of brine quenches other than salt ? Hershel House used to mix in chicken manure into his water quenches.

I've had good success with Brownell's "Tough Quench" oil for 1095 springs . It's a thin sulferized oil designed specifically for quench hardening.

 

[LRB]

I've had good success with Brownell's "Tough Quench" oil for 1095 springs . It's a thin sulferized oil designed specifically for quench hardening.

Tough Quench is not the best for 1095, it is a medium speed oil quench close to PARK AAA. BUT, if it works satisfactory to your standards with spring HTing, stay with it. It will not HT 1095 blades to their potential because it is a wee bit too slow. If you think about it, all quench oils are designed specifically for quench hardening, but there are different quench oils with different cooling speeds and properties that sometimes work better than others for certain steels. PARK 50 and clones are almost as fast as a water quench, but with less risk. To max out hardness in 1095 if need be or wanted, requires a quench that will cool the steel to below 900°f from 1475°f in under roughly 1/2 of one second. Brine will do that, but Tough Quench will not, and PARK 50 will not either, but it will come closer than Tough Quench. Like I said, if it works for your needs stay with it. PARK 50 ain't cheap, but none of them are now.

 

[FlinterNick]

I think there are different salts, but I think I would stick with sea salt, or even table salt. Does the chicken manure formula also prevent warp, or do you still have to point the blade north? Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Ha, I have no idea I’ve seen him put handfuls of it in water, maybe for the nitrates?

 

[LRB]

Yes, the nitrates, but I will stick with sea salt from the store.

 

[M. De Land]

Tough Quench is not the best for 1095, it is a medium speed oil quench close to PARK AAA. BUT, if it works satisfactory to your standards with spring HTing, stay with it. It will not HT 1095 blades to their potential because it is a wee bit too slow. If you think about it, all quench oils are designed specifically for quench hardening, but there are different quench oils with different cooling speeds and properties that sometimes work better than others for certain steels. PARK 50 and clones are almost as fast as a water quench, but with less risk. To max out hardness in 1095 if need be or wanted, requires a quench that will cool the steel to below 900°f from 1475°f in under roughly 1/2 of one second. Brine will do that, but Tough Quench will not, and PARK 50 will not either, but it will come closer than Tough Quench. Like I said, if it works for your needs stay with it. PARK 50 ain't cheap, but none of them are now.

Thanks, good information I'll have to give a a try and see how it compares ! I'm not making knife blades but rather gun springs.

 

[LRB]

I've had good success with Brownell's "Tough Quench" oil for 1095 springs . It's a thin sulferized oil designed specifically for quench hardening.

Thanks, good information I'll have to give a a try and see how it compares ! I'm not making knife blades but rather gun springs.

That is why I suggested Go with what you have that works for you, but yeah if you want to try it, give it a go.

 

[rich pierce]

Are there other types of brine quenches other than salt ? Hershel House used to mix in chicken manure into his water quenches.

I think he was just trying to get others to use chicken manure.

 

[PhDBrewer]

@Nav
Siler instructions.

And from "The Rifle Shope"

Hope this helps...

William

 

[Canute Rex]

When I had to caseharden a tumbler with Kasenite I made a "dipper." It was a piece of 2" steel pipe cut 2" long, with a cap welded on one end and a 3/8" rod welded on the side for a handle. I put a hinged lid on it. I preheated the piece in the dipper, sprinkled the Kasenite on the piece, closed the lid, and set it in the forge to soak at a bright red/dull orange for half an hour. The dipper keeps the Kasenite on it and the crud and oxygen off it. I then dumped it into water. It hardened up nicely. No idea about the thickness of the carbon layer, but I'd bet it was much better than .002".

 

[rich pierce]

A couple thousandths are plenty for lock plates and tumblers and sears. Frizzens wear more. When I deep pack case harden I add mild steel tie wire 1/16” thick. After quenching it snaps like glass and so it must penetrate pretty deep.

 

[FlinterNick]

A couple thousandths are plenty for lock plates and tumblers and sears. Frizzens wear more. When I deep pack case harden I add mild steel tie wire 1/16” thick. After quenching it snaps like glass and so it must penetrate pretty deep.

I use a graphite crucible with a mixture of charred fruit pits, leather and bone. I quench in hot water, water i get from a dehumidifier. Since I’ve stopped using NJ tap water, I’ve had no issues with cracks. I was gretting cracks with NJ tap, i believe because of how the water is treated and purified.

If i flame harden with a torch i use propane or Mapp, Acetylene can cause cracks during the heating process, especially if you’re not familiar with heat and oxygen control on an acetylene torch.