Leaving the range even more confused (Load development)

OK Smooooothieee, and just what caliber wazzz you shootin. ?

GriscomRun said:

OK Smooooothieee, and just what caliber wazzz you shootin. ?

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50-caliber … and still trying to best that group, lol!

Flint62Smoothie said:

Me thinks the biggest issue here is the OP's inconsistent burned threw/blown patches ...

1st things 1st ... get your rifle grouping!

Weigh your balls? Sure ... maybe for 100-yard offhand shootin' ... but here are the 1st two groups ever fired from a new-to-me rifle, of unweighed balls @ 25-yards. One ragged hole groups are good enough for me! Next, I'll repeat this out @ 50-yards.

View attachment 326696

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I had terrible groups at 25 yards- I was using a box of hornady .495 balls. I decided to weight them to see the average weight. MANY light round balls in that box! I just scrapped them and melted them to cast new ones. I weigh any and all round balls and bullets now.

Don't be afraid of the JB bore paste. It's not going to do anything more than breaking in your barrel and hopefully getting you uncut patches. Yes, weigh the balls. You might note that changing to conicals like 430gr Maxi Balls eliminates the whole ball/patch size issue. Switched from RB over 40 years ago and ain't going back.

... an additional thought on the cut patch/flyer...
Do you get the cut patch and the flyer on the same shot?
Is it possible when starting the ball, it is rolling off-center from the patch? I have had that issue and Jim at Fort Chambers actually mentioned that to me to be mindful of, especially when you see a random flyer from an otherwise decent group.

Well the struggle continues, I polished the bore and smoothed the muzzle using red scotch brite, I finished with JB bore polish.

Went back to the range and my groups are even worse, still getting ripped patches and everything seems to have opened up.

I’ve included some photos of patches for consideration. The patches marked “dry” where loaded and blown out with compressed air (the same lube was used across all tests dawn/water)

I tried loading with an undersized short starter (40) and had significant problems getting the ball started.

I’ve used a bore scope and see nothing in the bore that should be causing the tear but after blowing it out with compressed air 1/2 of the patches came out damaged.

This whole patch thing is so frustrating I know I went through a similar thing.. I don't think you should have to go through really exorbitant measures to get a decent load. The fact that you have bad patches when blowing out with air is something. My new rifle cuts the patch on the first shot and then it's fine from there so I'm ok with that. It seems like the powder fouling protects the patch. Maybe try 2f instead of 3f and see. Wish I had the answer.

The weave looks a little coarse, maybe try Oxyoke patching?

DillyJamba said:

View attachment 328870View attachment 328871Well the struggle continues, I polished the bore and smoothed the muzzle using red scotch brite, I finished with JB bore polish.

Went back to the range and my groups are even worse, still getting ripped patches and everything seems to have opened up.

I’ve included some photos of patches for consideration. The patches marked “dry” where loaded and blown out with compressed air (the same lube was used across all tests dawn/water)

I tried loading with an undersized short starter (40) and had significant problems getting the ball started.

I’ve used a bore scope and see nothing in the bore that should be causing the tear but after blowing it out with compressed air 1/2 of the patches came out damaged.

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Wow....just wow.

Those have to be the ugliest patches I have ever seen come out of the end of a muzzleloader!

Here is going to be my suggestion, I think it must be your patching material, I do not think it is your lubrication as I use spit patches and my patches look much better than that. (I assume you are not lubing the patches and then letting them dry, your patches should be damp)
Have you tried the #40 cotton drill from Jo-Ann's fabric, if not beg, borrow or steal some or drive the distance to get it.

The holes in the center of the patches should not be there and have nothing to do with the bore or any sharp edges at the muzzle.

Get some better patch material, make sure the patches are damp when loading and try again.

French Colonial said:

Wow....just wow.

Those have to be the ugliest patches I have ever seen come out of the end of a muzzleloader!

Here is going to be my suggestion, I think it must be your patching material, I do not think it is your lubrication as I use spit patches and my patches look much better than that. (I assume you are not lubing the patches and then letting them dry, your patches should be damp)
Have you tried the #40 cotton drill from Jo-Ann's fabric, if not beg, borrow or steal some or drive the distance to get it.

The holes in the center of the patches should not be there and have nothing to do with the bore or any sharp edges at the muzzle.

Get some better patch material, make sure the patches are damp when loading and try again.

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Unfortunately I've already tried #40 drill, denim and canvas. Generally, I find this material to be among the most durable. I may double back and try the drill again to see how it fairs but originally it was shredding worse than this.

I was pretty timid with the scotch brite as it was the red pad that is more abrasive but I'm going to hit it again with the green pad for 100 strokes and see if things improve.

Smaller balls. Get some you can load without a short starter.

DillyJamba said:

....

I was pretty timid with the scotch brite as it was the red pad that is more abrasive but I'm going to hit it again with the green pad for 100 strokes and see if things improve.

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And load the pad with Flitz.

DillyJamba said:

Unfortunately I've already tried #40 drill, denim and canvas. Generally, I find this material to be among the most durable. I may double back and try the drill again to see how it fairs but originally it was shredding worse than this.

I was pretty timid with the scotch brite as it was the red pad that is more abrasive but I'm going to hit it again with the green pad for 100 strokes and see if things improve.

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The patches that are blown out in the middle indicate that it is getting burnt through or the patch is tearing upon loading from too tight a ball/patch combination. A rough bore or bad muzzle will tear the patch where the patch meets the bore, not in the middle.

As waksupi says try a smaller ball and make sure your patches have sufficient moisture.

.526 balls now on order, hoping I can get it sorted before my next match. it is an EXTREMELY tight load currently. (short starter requiring several wacks with any patch material)

Hopefully this solves my woes but I think the stress of loading is ripping the patch I no longer think its related to the bore so I'm going to leave it alone for the next round of testing.

Any better source than track for .526 balls? They're kind of pricey?

Cast your own. You will save a lot of money in the long run.

Pretty much every custom barrel in .54 like your Douglas, will shoot a .526. Production barrels tend to use the .530 - .535 balls.

How often are you cleaning the bore?

I am fairly new to flinters but in my limited knowledge I had worse patches than yours. I decided to use buffered loads with cornmeal. Half the volumne of the powder. Placed it directly on the powder then placed the patched ball. It quit tearing up the patches but accuracy wasn’t where I wanted it. Switched to buffalo bullets and now. The holes are touching if I can hold it steady and not flinch.

My patches were worse by a longshot. I took my barrel and had the crown reworked to 60 degrees then polished with scotchbrite JB bore polish. Shot it today with 445 RB cut at barrel with blue ticking lubed with Hoppes BP cleaner. No damage to patch but just too hard to load. Next was with .440 RB precut patches lubed with Hoppes, easier to load but a little damage with the thinner patches. Accuracy improved considerable. Decided to stop and clean barrel for tomorrow adventure. Gonna try .440 RB with thick ticking cut at the barrel tomorrow. So far it looks like my problem was the crown and maybe the precut patches.

I feel your pain. I struggled with the all the variables that exist with shooting RB. First is ball size. There may be two or three diameters that work with your barrel. Next are the patches. There may be two or three thickness that might work with each diameter ball. Once you've got that nailed down (or not) you've got to develop the correct load, usually by 5g increments. Man, that's a LOT of variables and combinations for me to deal with as well as the note taking for each combo. My solution? As I mentioned above, my answer to simpler shooting was to try conicals and I am fortunate in that all my rifles shoot Maxis very well. From reading here, it seems that a great many shooters have 1:48 barrels that also shoot these well. The advantage to me is no patches (1 variable gone already). I only use Maxis but admittedly have tried other conicals. But even in trying different bullets I don't have to try 2 or 3 patches only adjust my load. I have found this to be a much better solution for me and on another note, if you plan on shooting out to 100 yds or further, conicals hit harder down range.
Some are lucky and hit a good load early on and then there are those that have to put a bit more effort and practice in. I do wish you well in solving your load combos.

DillyJamba said:

.526 balls now on order, hoping I can get it sorted before my next match. it is an EXTREMELY tight load currently. (short starter requiring several wacks with any patch material)

Hopefully this solves my woes but I think the stress of loading is ripping the patch I no longer think its related to the bore so I'm going to leave it alone for the next round of testing.

Any better source than track for .526 balls? They're kind of pricey?

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I think you are on to the solution, personally I think any load that requires several "wacks" on the short starter is way to tight.

Pay the money and test the .526 balls and if they do not work your not out that much, if they do work you can start searching for a less expensive source for the balls, either a good quality mold or another vendor.

Good luck.

Edit, whoops, I reread your post and you already ordered them, good for you.