Authenticity of Veteran Arms Brown Bess Muskets

What is TRS?

The Rifle Shoppe

Never mind. The Rifle Shoppe in Oklahoma. Instead if just using abbreviations, write out entire words just ONCE in a post so folks will know what you're talking about. THEN you can go back to the abbreviation. Letters to editor in newspapers are notorious for using mystery abbreviations.

FlinterNick said:

Thanks Dave ! Much obliged and agree with everything you’ve stated.

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Dave seems like the voice of reason in all of this.

The rifle shoppe will rifle any barrel? Always thought a 75 caliber rifle (Bess) would be fun. Not afraid of recoil , not a 4-bore person but 12 gauge is acceptable

Aglukan said:

Dave is the barrel bigger for safety reasons ?

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Hi Aglukan,
I am sorry. I did not answer your question. The barrels were big at the breech for safety and strength. Remember, the musket was also a kind of pike with its bayonet so it had to be very strong. Also, they were made from wrought iron, not steel, and welded into a tube. Even with the big breeches about 10% failed proof tests by the Tower. However, the proofed survivors were very strong and safe barrels and the wide breeches put the safety and weight for balance where it ought to be, at the breech end. Also, keep in mind, the historic load was over 160 grains of 1F-2F powder of which 10-15 grains went into the pan for priming and the rest in the barrel. That is a lot of powder and a load very few modern shooters and reenactors ever experience with their repro guns.

dave

cebusey said:

Hi Dave -
Any possibility that you could identify your excellent photos of incredibly poor quality as to which company the locks were imported by? I am surprised that you included Loyalist as I have had good quality products from them including one pistol I have had for over 20 years without any need besides normal cleaning and lubrication of the lock to keep it going. I wish I could say the same for the Pedersoli locks I have encountered/owned.

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Hi,
The two locks I showed were from guns likely sold by Middlesex Valley Trading Co. Unfortunately, some come in without the owner knowing the retailer because they were bought second hand. I don't routinely photograph every India-made gun that passes through my shop. I've had guns from both Veteran Arms and Loyalist and outwardly they may appear better than others, when I pulled the locks off, the mortises were the usual inlet messes. The locks may work and fire reliably but they all needed extensive work to bring them anywhere close to an authentic standard plus the trigger pulls were outrageously heavy. Most importantly relative to the OP's original question for this thread, none were historically accurate.

dave

Thanks, Dave. Whenever I see your work, here or on the other forum, I think, "A thing of beauty is a joy forever".

sportster73hp said:

The rifle shoppe will rifle any barrel? Always thought a 75 caliber rifle (Bess) would be fun. Not afraid of recoil , not a 4-bore person but 12 gauge is acceptable

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Yes they will, they will even rifle a wall gun barrel. If you do request one you will wait a long time for it. I’ve never seen a rifled brown bess though, ive seen 1816’s, late charleville’s, Prussian 1809 flintlocks. Rifling a Brown Bess could probably be done in a lower caliber such as .72, on a .77 caliber gun there might be too much taper on the outside to accept riling after around 25 or 30 inches.

I have seen and fired a rifled 1816 in flintlock, with a slightly lower caliber around .67, the concept was based on some experimental rifled 1816’s Based on the greenwood project, three groove progressive depth rifling. The difference in groupings with a .65 round ball was moderately better at 100 yards. I do believe all rifled 1816’s were in percussion conversion.

https://collegehillarsenal.com/greenwood-of-ohio-rifled-sighted-m-1816-rare

FlinterNick said:

Yes they will, they will even rifle a wall gun barrel. If you do request one you will wait a long time for it. I’ve never seen a rifled brown bess though, ive seen 1816’s, late charleville’s, Prussian 1809 flintlocks. Rifling a Brown Bess could probably be done in a lower caliber such as .72, on a .77 caliber gun there might be too much taper on the outside to accept riling after around 25 or 30 inches.

I have seen and fired a rifled 1816 in flintlock, with a slightly lower caliber around .67, the concept was based on some experimental rifled 1816’s Based on the greenwood project, three groove progressive depth rifling. The difference in groupings with a .65 round ball was moderately better at 100 yards. I do believe all rifled 1816’s were in percussion conversion.

https://collegehillarsenal.com/greenwood-of-ohio-rifled-sighted-m-1816-rare

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And the rifled 1816s had a higher than usual tendency to burst their barrels, so ultimately the practice was stopped.

Clark Badgett said:

And the rifled 1816s had a higher than usual tendency to burst their barrels, so ultimately the practice was stopped.

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Trivia caution;
Some muskets in the arsenal had already had rifle sights mounted when this decision was made. These sighted muskets were then sent unrifled to the troops. That is why certain models of smooth bore muskets are allowed rifled sighs in N-SSA matches.

Hi,
Here is another India-made Bess lock that came in my door this month. The owner was told it was one of the better India-made guns and the stock inletting is better than I typically see. He thought it was from Loyalist Arms but on inspection I am inclined to believe it was retailed by Military Heritage or Middlesex Village Traders. The barrel markings indicate it was made in Uttar Pradesh. I have it because the owner, a member of Warner's regiment, cannot get it to fire reliably. The reason is the lock is a mess. The geometry is terrible and the flint cock does not descend far enough to over hang the pan so that unless you use a long flint, it does not hit the battery with sufficient force to open it. You cannot adjust that very much because if the tumbler rotates further, the toe will drop below the lock plate. The tumbler fit to the plate is ghastly.

It is a misshaped lump of metal.

Worse, the shoulder on the post does not protrude above the lock plate so the flint cock tightens against the plate, virtually immobilizing it unless pushed by an extremely stiff spring.

You can see the rub marks on the plate. This is junk, pure and simple.

I fixed it all and got it working pretty well. I had to case harden the battery because it was not well hardened. There was very little effort to make the stock and components historically accurate. None of the components would ever have been accepted by British ordnance yet the barrel has the proof and inspection marks. What an affront to the memory of those skilled tradesmen (and a few women) that made the originals.

dave

I have been in reenactments when almost all the muskets failed to fire at the volley. Downright embarrassing
I sometimes think the command for some units should be; Make ready! Aim! Click!

PathfinderNC said:

I have been in reenactments when almost all the muskets failed to fire at the volley. Downright embarrassing
I sometimes think the command for some units should be; Make ready! Aim! Click!

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Much of that can be solved with a proper safety inspection. Most simply check half cock/full cock, empty barrel and general inspection. When I have ran a line I additionally check spark. A lock that won't spark IS an unsafe weapon as you will be dealing with a loaded gun misfired. A click may not be a big deal when shooting alone but when public is watching it becomes a show. As a result I have been able to run a weekend event with no misfires from a variety of guns (India, Spain, Japan, USA, ect). I have observed events where misfires abounded with cap guns.

Hi Bob,
That is why Maria and I hold live firing sessions for Warner's regiment at my home and range. During each weekend event, we inspect all of their locks, fix serious problems and teach them how to clean and care for their guns. Then they are off to the range to shoot first at round paper targets up to a range of 60 yards to learn how their guns shoot and develop their own sight pictures. They also learn the consequences of misfires when you have live loads rather than blanks. That teaches them to make sure their equipment works properly. They then fire at silhouettes using historical loads (160 grains 2F powder and 0.69 ball in paper patch). That means about 145 grains of powder go down the barrel. They feel the recoil and when they volley fire, they feel the shock through their feet. On Sunday they run the gongs, a timed event in which each member shoots at gongs and novelty targets while on the move. For each hit they deduct 1 minute from their time. At each station they have 3 opportunities to fire. If their gun fails after 3 attempts, they have to withdraw. The first time we had them run the gongs, half had to withdraw. It has gotten better since.

dave

When i purchased my Baker from Middlesex the owner was acting as a gunsmith. One of the reasons for my long wait was to tune the lock and “ proof “ the barrel. Only real problem i have had with the gun was a bore way over .620/20 gauge. I will admit to firing it 200 rounds or less.
I was not impressed with their sales process. I don’t think one should sell something they don’t have in stock.
This was 2008 or so.

dave_person said:

Hi Bob,
That is why Maria and I hold live firing sessions for Warner's regiment at my home and range. During each weekend event, we inspect all of their locks, fix serious problems and teach them how to clean and care for their guns. Then they are off to the range to shoot first at round paper targets up to a range of 60 yards to learn how their guns shoot and develop their own sight pictures. They also learn the consequences of misfires when you have live loads rather than blanks. That teaches them to make sure their equipment works properly. They then fire at silhouettes using historical loads (160 grains 2F powder and 0.69 ball in paper patch). That means about 145 grains of powder go down the barrel. They feel the recoil and when they volley fire, they feel the shock through their feet. On Sunday they run the gongs, a timed event in which each member shoots at gongs and novelty targets while on the move. For each hit they deduct 1 minute from their time. At each station they have 3 opportunities to fire. If their gun fails after 3 attempts, they have to withdraw. The first time we had them run the gongs, half had to withdraw. It has gotten better since.

dave

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Dave, Warner’s Regt. is blessed to have you and Maria. I’m sure they appreciate it. I would
(I am a new member of the 2nd N.C. Regt., and was really suprised how so many folks were astonished when I showed them how to even field clean their firelocks. One asked me to make a demonstration video!)

sportster73hp said:

When i purchased my Baker from Middlesex the owner was acting as a gunsmith. One of the reasons for my long wait was to tune the lock and “ proof “ the barrel. Only real problem i have had with the gun was a bore way over .620/20 gauge. I will admit to firing it 200 rounds or less.
I was not impressed with their sales process. I don’t think one should sell something they don’t have in stock.
This was 2008 or so.

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I’m working with someone on fixing a Middlesex baker, tryng to find a replacement lock. The lock was sent to middlesex 7 or 8 years ago for tuning and repairs, the owner never got it back.

PathfinderNC said:

I have been in reenactments when almost all the muskets failed to fire at the volley. Downright embarrassing
I sometimes think the command for some units should be; Make ready! Aim! Click!

Click to expand...

We had around 3 that failed at Monmouth over last weekend, each one has a compilation of issues to be dealt with.

FlinterNick said:

I’m working with someone on fixing a Middlesex baker, tryng to find a replacement lock. The lock was sent to middlesex 7 or 8 years ago for tuning and repairs, the owner never got it back.

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I heard that happening. Either not returning or sending back not fixed but with a bill. I don’t like to talk bad of a business but this has happed too many times.