Authenticity of Veteran Arms Brown Bess Muskets

[Aglukan]

Most of the India guns seem very similar. I always assumed they used the same group of shops; an older Bess I have has Udairpur (sp.?) marked on the barrel. I seem to recall Vet Arms saying they disassemble and stain their muskets here at their shop. One thing to do is read the importer's statements on their site. I ordered 2 or 3 muskets years back from Vet and they were nice to deal with, very responsive. I'd order from them again if needed. Also check out their new Bess Bayonet, with the clever fitting feature. The India-mades certainly seem to fill a needed niche in the re-enacting world.

The one from middlesex looked it was finished with some type of spray on varnish, had clumped up spots in the seems around the lock. The veteran arms one was done better, hand finished i think. Middlesex certainly does not provide anything close to what is pictured in their catalog.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Seriously guys? The period is after "shows" terminating the previous sentence. The next sentence begins with "As" which is capitalized, there is no period after as it continues with the quote as to what he says.

Learn to use the colon, makes the written word much easier to not get confused.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I figured the giant box with the persons name was clear enough.

 

[Clark Badgett]

I figured the giant box with the persons name was clear enough.

You know what they say about assuming?

 

[FlinterNick]

The India-made muskets use some sort of wood from India, can't recall what it is? Teak?

Indian made guns are made out of firewood.

I’ve seen better quality wood at Home Depot and Lowes.

 

[wganz]

Learn to use the colon, makes the written word much easier to not get confused.

OMG!

I absolutely love any thread about Indian muskets since they bring out the best in our members.
From metallurgy or mid 18th manufacturing processes / politics and now grammar.
I'm not taking sides or commenting one way or the other.
But this is just bananas. As an RN and one that worked Baylor ER, "colon" takes on a WHOLE new meaning with "Learn to use".

 

[dave_person]

Hi Aglukan,
I have no idea what differences there are between Loyalist, Veteran Arms, and Middlesex Valley Traders sold guns. Working with reenactors I have had guns from all of those suppliers in my shop at some point. They all required extensive work on the locks. We rarely accept India-made guns to work on anymore because they all have been massive consumers of time and the end result works mechanically but is never very satisfying relative to historical accuracy, which is usually our goal for any work we do. I will say that none were any more historically accurate than any other and none were very well made compared with pre-industrial 18th century standards. Here are some examples of locks that came in to be worked over.

Tumbler holes too big, holes off center, screws drilled at wrong angles, dished out tumbler holes so the flintcocks ground against the lock plate, etc. Despite the deficiencies, working on these and other poorly made flintlocks taught me an important lesson. All of them worked somewhat and several had been decent performing locks for many years before they came to me. It demonstrates that flintlocks need to be well made but they don't need the super fine tolerances lauded today on CNC machined locks. That level of precision is overkill and unnecessary. Flintlocks are not jet engines needing precise parts rotating thousands of RPMs for hours. The best flintlocks of all time were made by hand in England during the 1st quarter of the 19th century. They were hand made using simple jigs, templates, and cutters. Even crudely made locks can work pretty well without a great level of precision. However, they need proper geometry and properly heat treated parts. Sometimes India-made locks fail in both respects.

dave

 

[Aglukan]

OMG! View attachment 327345 View attachment 327345View attachment 327345

I absolutely love any thread about Indian muskets since they bring out the best in our members.
From metallurgy or mid 18th manufacturing processes / politics and now grammar.
I'm not taking sides or commenting one way or the other.
But this is just bananas. As an RN and one that worked Baylor ER, "colon" takes on a WHOLE new meaning with "Learn to use".
View attachment 327345 View attachment 327345View attachment 327345

It was confusing, i was reading the quote and going back over what Dave wrote, I’m not going to apologize for being confused, as it it was confusing. The person who wrote it explained themselves and thats that.

 

[springfield art]

Dave is the barrel bigger for safety reasons ?

Many replica guns nowadays have "lawyer barrels", which are super heavy and thick because of the liability involved.

 

[springfield art]

Hi Aglukan,
I have no idea what differences there are between Loyalist, Veteran Arms, and Middlesex Valley Traders sold guns. Working with reenactors I have had guns from all of those suppliers in my shop at some point. They all required extensive work on the locks. We rarely accept India-made guns to work on anymore because they all have been massive consumers of time and the end result works mechanically but is never very satisfying relative to historical accuracy, which is usually our goal for any work we do. I will say that none were any more historically accurate than any other and none were very well made compared with pre-industrial 18th century standards. Here are some examples of locks that came in to be worked over.

Tumbler holes too big, holes off center, screws drilled at wrong angles, dished out tumbler holes so the flintcocks ground against the lock plate, etc. Despite the deficiencies, working on these and other poorly made flintlocks taught me an important lesson. All of them worked somewhat and several had been decent performing locks for many years before they came to me. It demonstrates that flintlocks need to be well made but they don't need the super fine tolerances lauded today on CNC machined locks. That level of precision is overkill and unnecessary. Flintlocks are not jet engines needing precise parts rotating thousands of RPMs for hours. The best flintlocks of all time were made by hand in England during the 1st quarter of the 19th century. They were hand made using simple jigs, templates, and cutters. Even crudely made locks can work pretty well without a great level of precision. However, they need proper geometry and properly heat treated parts. Sometimes India-made locks fail in both respects.

dave

Excellent comments from someone who knows first hand. Thanks.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Hi Aglukan,
I have no idea what differences there are between Loyalist, Veteran Arms, and Middlesex Valley Traders sold guns. Working with reenactors I have had guns from all of those suppliers in my shop at some point. They all required extensive work on the locks. We rarely accept India-made guns to work on anymore because they all have been massive consumers of time and the end result works mechanically but is never very satisfying relative to historical accuracy, which is usually our goal for any work we do. I will say that none were any more historically accurate than any other and none were very well made compared with pre-industrial 18th century standards. Here are some examples of locks that came in to be worked over.




Tumbler holes too big, holes off center, screws drilled at wrong angles, dished out tumbler holes so the flintcocks ground against the lock plate, etc. Despite the deficiencies, working on these and other poorly made flintlocks taught me an important lesson. All of them worked somewhat and several had been decent performing locks for many years before they came to me. It demonstrates that flintlocks need to be well made but they don't need the super fine tolerances lauded today on CNC machined locks. That level of precision is overkill and unnecessary. Flintlocks are not jet engines needing precise parts rotating thousands of RPMs for hours. The best flintlocks of all time were made by hand in England during the 1st quarter of the 19th century. They were hand made using simple jigs, templates, and cutters. Even crudely made locks can work pretty well without a great level of precision. However, they need proper geometry and properly heat treated parts. Sometimes India-made locks fail in both respects.

dave

Unfortunately for many earlier pieces it is either india made or trs kit and builder at 3 times the cost. I would love to see better competition but realistically they have no competition. The recently dredged up topic on the double barrel pistol is a good example. Of course it could be better but with no option take it or leave it.

 

[wganz]

It was confusing, i was reading the quote and going back over what Dave wrote, I’m not going to apologize for being confused, as it it was confusing. The person who wrote it explained themselves and thats that.

I know but still bananas.

 

[Aglukan]

I know but still bananas. View attachment 327372

View attachment 327371

It wasn’t bad grammar, i would call it poor internet etiquette to quote someone or miss-quote someone accidentally. I work in IT i see this all the time. Keep our conversations straight, clear and to the point creates less confusion, and upsets less people such as yourself.

 

[Aglukan]

Hi Aglukan,
I have no idea what differences there are between Loyalist, Veteran Arms, and Middlesex Valley Traders sold guns. Working with reenactors I have had guns from all of those suppliers in my shop at some point. They all required extensive work on the locks. We rarely accept India-made guns to work on anymore because they all have been massive consumers of time and the end result works mechanically but is never very satisfying relative to historical accuracy, which is usually our goal for any work we do. I will say that none were any more historically accurate than any other and none were very well made compared with pre-industrial 18th century standards. Here are some examples of locks that came in to be worked over.

Tumbler holes too big, holes off center, screws drilled at wrong angles, dished out tumbler holes so the flintcocks ground against the lock plate, etc. Despite the deficiencies, working on these and other poorly made flintlocks taught me an important lesson. All of them worked somewhat and several had been decent performing locks for many years before they came to me. It demonstrates that flintlocks need to be well made but they don't need the super fine tolerances lauded today on CNC machined locks. That level of precision is overkill and unnecessary. Flintlocks are not jet engines needing precise parts rotating thousands of RPMs for hours. The best flintlocks of all time were made by hand in England during the 1st quarter of the 19th century. They were hand made using simple jigs, templates, and cutters. Even crudely made locks can work pretty well without a great level of precision. However, they need proper geometry and properly heat treated parts. Sometimes India-made locks fail in both respects.

dave

Such Amazing information Dave, and great examples to follow. Thank you again. I’m surprised that some of these gun shops would actually sell such poor quality, they could probably do a better job.

 

[Aglukan]

Excellent comments from someone who knows first hand. Thanks.

I agree.

 

[Sam squanch]

Learn to use the colon…..

 

[Sam squanch]

In all seriousness- these India gunmakers need to offer a miquelet lock. Precise fitting is not required, with a good mainspring and properly tempered frizzen they spark every time! The trigger pull takes some getting used to though, but for a musket it’s ok.

 

[Commodore Swab]

In all seriousness- these India gunmakers need to offer a miquelet lock. Precise fitting is not required, with a good mainspring and properly tempered frizzen they spark every time! The trigger pull takes some getting used to though, but for a musket it’s ok.

Believe it or not I have an Indian made miquelet musket. Aside from the finish on the steel it is very comparable to one from TRS.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Believe it or not I have an Indian made miquelet musket. Aside from the finish on the steel it is very comparable to one from TRS.

TRS locks come as unassembled castings with sprues still attached. So India miquelets come as slightly polished unassembled castings with the sprues still attached?

 

[Commodore Swab]

TRS locks come as unassembled castings with sprues still attached. So India miquelets come as slightly polished unassembled castings with the sprues still attached?

Comparing as completed guns. TRS lock came assembled when my friend bought it many years ago. Actually I am going to have to rebuild the rifle shoppe lock as it doesn't work as well as the indian.