India Barrel Failure

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FlinterNick said:
I’ve always echoed this. For the money and additional costs put into Indian guns, you could get a much better quality muzzle loader from Kibler. I second that. You’ll also get a lot o support from Jim himself.
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What’s the extra money put in to an Indian gun?
Ram rod, I have extras for all my guns
Oil and stain if you wish to rework the wood, twenty bucks?
Twenty bucks to dull the bright steel
Your still a couple of hundred less then a Kibler, and I think he only offers one smoothie
 
FlinterNick said:
The only person here using the pipe bomb analogy is you.


lol, Wallace Gustler didnt’ forge a barrel out of steel, he used wrought iron, that’s a pretty important fact that people such as yourself pass off as trivial.
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So you are admitting that the steel used in Indian muskets is better than anything that one of the best rifle builders ever used. That's a wonderful endorsement from such a learned scholar as yourself so I guess you can withdraw any comments you have made that were derogatory about Indian muskets? You are a good person to be so selfless as to do that.
 
jd945043 said:
So you are admitting that the steel used in Indian muskets is better than anything that one of the best rifle builders ever used. That's a wonderful endorsement from such a learned scholar as yourself so I guess you can withdraw any comments you have made that were derogatory about Indian muskets? You are a good person to be so selfless as to do that.
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Nope, I’m saying Wallace Gustler used wrought iron, thanks but no thanks.
 
sussexmuzllodr said:
Ok..Ok... All joking aside if its what makes you happy then pursue it.
If I were to go down the Road I would just get a Kiber.
Minmal work with a great support base for parts.
Everyone has their nische on what makes them Happy.
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FlinterNick said:
I’ve always echoed this. For the money and additional costs put into Indian guns, you could get a much better quality muzzle loader from Kibler. I second that. You’ll also get a lot o support from Jim himself.
Click to expand...
Last I checked kibler wasn't making (model wise) what is being sold by india and india isn't producing what kibler is making. Apples to oranges. I would love to see competition for india, and TRS for that matter.

If the goal is to send projectiles down range then unmentionables are far better options than muzzleloaders. On the other hand we are here because we love muzzle loaders whether they are used for hunting, reenactment, play or just hanging on a wall. There is no need to degrade ones choice just because they have a slightly different love of muzzleloaders and they only have one option.

I see much about how steel might not be as good if it's recycled (where do you think the steel for your car came from) and this may be true. However, shouldn't the comparison be regarding what is required rather than which is stronger? DOM tubing is far superior to iron pipe which is stronger than PVC. Yet when building a compressed air system for the shop pvc gets the job done. With tens of thousands of guns in people's hands and not a single documented failure (this is not a documented failure as it is from a differentmanufacturer) it is quite clear that whatever steel alloy is used it is quite sufficient for the job. Original guns and cannons have been made with so many different combinations that there have even been efforts to classify alloys as "gun metal".

Can brass or bronze be used instead of steel? Properly used is aluminum as strong or stronger than brass? Historically brass has been used if aluminum is comparable why not?

But no, instead I hear recycled steel is no good and thus must be condemned.
 
1805, A Colonel in the German Service ( an anonymous British officer serving in German or Austrian army during the napoleonic wars wrote
A soldier’s musket , if it is not exceedingly badly bored, AS MANY ARE, will strike the figure of a man at 80 yards -it may even at a 100 yards.
In 1796 another anonymous known only as An Officer of Infantry wrote A Sketch of the Present State of the Army that said
Amongst other grievances which might easily be remedied, it may not be improper to mention the badness of flints , and the softness of that part of the pan cover the soldier call the hammer. This is so general that take at a venture any number of men, and after ten or twelve rounds you will find at least a fifth part of the cartridges have not been used.
My Indian doglock will hit a figure of a man at a hundred yards at least nine out of ten times shooting cartridge of 110 grains and .690 ball, and I’ve ran thirty shots counted on one flint with out a clatch or retouch of the edge.
Me thinks at times we overestimate how fine old guns were
 
Commodore Swab said:
Last I checked kibler wasn't making (model wise) what is being sold by india and india isn't producing what kibler is making. Apples to oranges. I would love to see competition for india, and TRS for that matter.

If the goal is to send projectiles down range then unmentionables are far better options than muzzleloaders. On the other hand we are here because we love muzzle loaders whether they are used for hunting, reenactment, play or just hanging on a wall. There is no need to degrade ones choice just because they have a slightly different love of muzzleloaders and they only have one option.

I see much about how steel might not be as good if it's recycled (where do you think the steel for your car came from) and this may be true. However, shouldn't the comparison be regarding what is required rather than which is stronger? DOM tubing is far superior to iron pipe which is stronger than PVC. Yet when building a compressed air system for the shop pvc gets the job done. With tens of thousands of guns in people's hands and not a single documented failure (this is not a documented failure as it is from a differentmanufacturer) it is quite clear that whatever steel alloy is used it is quite sufficient for the job. Original guns and cannons have been made with so many different combinations that there have even been efforts to classify alloys as "gun metal".

Can brass or bronze be used instead of steel? Properly used is aluminum as strong or stronger than brass? Historically brass has been used if aluminum is comparable why not?

But no, instead I hear recycled steel is no good and thus must be condemned.
Click to expand...

I recently watched a video by the Williamsburg gunsmith about making a barrel from iron. He stated they used varying grades of iron, not what you are stating. I do find myself wondering how you would know what combinations of iron or steel an original gun was made out of ? Do you have your own laboratory ?
 
Aglukan said:
I recently watched a video by the Williamsburg gunsmith about making a barrel from iron. He stated they used varying grades of iron, not what you are stating. I do find myself wondering how you would know what combinations of iron or steel an original gun was made out of ? Do you have your own laboratory ?
Click to expand...
You don't. Options are build with known materials to specs and test x number out of x. This is typically how most tests are done, build 10000 barrels test 100 at random. Another option is to overbuild, I believe a common complaint regarding Indian built guns are their weight. Yet another option is to test every single one, by far the most expensive.
 
FlinterNick said:
Indian made barrels are not Damascus steel, they’re probably made of melted down shipwrecks.

Nobody really knows what they’re made of, while i think they’re 98% ok, having the information on what steels they’re made of and how they’re heated treated if required would be appreciated in this topic.
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Argentina had a very serviceable pistol purportedly made of "melted down shipwreck", The Ballester-Molina
 
tenngun said:
What’s the extra money put in to an Indian gun?
Ram rod, I have extras for all my guns
Oil and stain if you wish to rework the wood, twenty bucks?
Twenty bucks to dull the bright steel
Your still a couple of hundred less then a Kibler, and I think he only offers one smoothie
Click to expand...
Holy cow, you must work for cheap. Just making my hourly rate at my real job would end up costing 10k to fix all the mechanical and visual deficiencies of the standard India made ML.
 
Commodore Swab said:
You don't. Options are build with known materials to specs and test x number out of x. This is typically how most tests are done, build 10000 barrels test 100 at random. Another option is to overbuild, I believe a common complaint regarding Indian built guns are their weight. Yet another option is to test every single one, by far the most expensive.
Click to expand...

So you are guessing here and offering it as an experts opinion. Where I’m from we’ll call this a sham, are you selling something ?
 
Clark Badgett said:
Holy cow, you must work for cheap. Just making my hourly rate at my real job would end up costing 10k to fix all the mechanical and visual deficiencies of the standard India made ML.
Click to expand...
I guess I do
How much do you normally make on your day off
I guess I’m paying a couple hundred a pound for my tomatoes and Hod knows what I pay to mow my lawn.
I sew up most of my clothing and have build at last a dozen guns.
Guess I paid too much for them
 
Just thinking I got really ripped. Last gun I built I had $700 worth of parts and spent a hundred and fifty hours building it
Pay about forty an hour, that’s with the parts about $6700,😳
Sure ain’t a three thousand dollar gun
Well going to a movie is about twenty bucks a ticket
How much would you pay for the fun of working on your gun?
I guess any time working on a gun is a break even
 
tenngun said:
That’s great, but Kibler doesn’t offer a century worth of bess or Charley options. No match locks, I don’t know of anyone else offering dog lock, or Potsdam or Calvary carbines or see service besses, or early English trade guns
Kibler is the best kit you can get, but choices for all of our best makers are limited
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understood.
 
tenngun said:
Just thinking I got really ripped. Last gun I built I had $700 worth of parts and spent a hundred and fifty hours building it
Pay about forty an hour, that’s with the parts about $6700,😳
Sure ain’t a three thousand dollar gun
Well going to a movie is about twenty bucks a ticket
How much would you pay for the fun of working on your gun?
I guess any time working on a gun is a break even
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood him but the way I understood it was you really can’t change something that’s already pretty low quality and you can only give it so much plastic surgery It’s still gonna be what it is.

What do you really end up with an $1100 decent looking gun from 10 feet away even Joan Rivers didn’t look that good 20 feet away
 
FlinterNick said:
^myth^
Click to expand...
Perhaps the evidence does point that way, but it is not 100% conclusive, besides that's not the point.

Do you really think that no salvaged vessel steel, no steel from any scrapped vessel hasn't ended up in a firearm? My guess i it has in the neighborhood of tons.

Also, why would ship scrap steel be any different than any other scrap steel, which is in broader use than virgin steel?

There are many in the sport that are shooting original guns, especially from the WBS era and even the AR era, are you trying to tell me the metallurgy in those guns is superior to the modern steels the Indians are using?
 
tenngun said:
I guess I do
How much do you normally make on your day off
I guess I’m paying a couple hundred a pound for my tomatoes and Hod knows what I pay to mow my lawn.
I sew up most of my clothing and have build at last a dozen guns.
Guess I paid too much for them
Click to expand...
Yeah that one zinged right over yer head.
 
TNGhost said:
Perhaps the evidence does point that way, but it is not 100% conclusive, besides that's not the point.

Do you really think that no salvaged vessel steel, no steel from any scrapped vessel hasn't ended up in a firearm? My guess i it has in the neighborhood of tons.

Also, why would ship scrap steel be any different than any other scrap steel, which is in broader use than virgin steel?

There are many in the sport that are shooting original guns, especially from the WBS era and even the AR era, are you trying to tell me the metallurgy in those guns is superior to the modern steels the Indians are using?
Click to expand...

I think you need to do some research on the scrap metal recycling process in India. Doesn’t go from the ocean to the forge as you’re imagining it’s a lot more detailed than that. But no, I wouldn’t trust it so there’s your answer
 
FlinterNick said:
I think you need to do some research on the scrap metal recycling process in India. Doesn’t go from the ocean to the forge as you’re imagining it’s a lot more detailed than that. But no, I wouldn’t trust it so there’s your answer
Click to expand...
India is the second largest steel producer in the world, and I am sure like any other country they have varying levels of quality, but they do produce firearms of high quality, so they have high quality steel, and if the purveyors of said Indian rifles are not outright lying about the specs on their barrel steel, it is plenty strong enough for the use intended, and then some

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_and_steel_industry_in_India

https://ddpdoo.gov.in/units/RFI

Even back in the days of matchlocks, Indian muskets were renowned for their quality, and the more modern 2A Enfield .308 was made from higher quality steel than the British models it derived from.

What evidence do you have as to their quality beyond your personal prejudice?
 
TNGhost said:
India is the second largest steel producer in the world, and I am sure like any other country they have varying levels of quality, but they do produce firearms of high quality, so they have high quality steel, and if the purveyors of said Indian rifles are not outright lying about the specs on their barrel steel, it is plenty strong enough for the use intended, and then some

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_and_steel_industry_in_India

https://ddpdoo.gov.in/units/RFI

Even back in the days of matchlocks, Indian muskets were renowned for their quality, and the more modern 2A Enfield .308 was made from higher quality steel than the British models it derived from.

What evidence do you have as to their quality beyond your personal prejudice?
Click to expand...

TNGhost said:
India is the second largest steel producer in the world, and I am sure like any other country they have varying levels of quality, but they do produce firearms of high quality, so they have high quality steel, and if the purveyors of said Indian rifles are not outright lying about the specs on their barrel steel, it is plenty strong enough for the use intended, and then some

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_and_steel_industry_in_India

https://ddpdoo.gov.in/units/RFI

Even back in the days of matchlocks, Indian muskets were renowned for their quality, and the more modern 2A Enfield .308 was made from higher quality steel than the British models it derived from.

What evidence do you have as to their quality beyond your personal prejudice?
Click to expand...

Well, a barrel did explode that’s what this entire thread was about. So there I don’t trust it. Have a good day.
 
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