India Barrel Failure

He never claimed to make his own barrels. He said he knows what his barrels are made of. Just like you don’t seem to know the difference between brass and bronze, and don’t understand that modern bronze alloys don’t really resemble old 90cu/10sn Naval bronze.

TNGhost said:

Yep, simple, no lengthy discussion needed.

Bronze is a copper/tin alloy with greater tensile strength and hardness making it suitable for things like tools.

Brass is a copper/zinc alloy with greater corrosion resistance and ductility, making it suitable for things like cartridge cases.

Everything you need to know about bronze and brass:

https://industrialmetalservice.com/metal-university/the-difference-between-brass-and-bronze/#:~:text=Bronze and brass are the metal alloys of,for various electrical applications, including enhanced corrosion resistance.

Oh, and Indian guns rock.

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I can cut some slack. Modern bronzes don’t look like old school bronze due to modern alloys. Just like there are also modern brasses that are almost as tough as some bronzes.
Take a look at the picture below. One rectangle is silicone bronze, the other is 260 brass. Can you pick which is which based on color?

When I specify "my" barrel it's one I built whether or not that is what nick meant is unknown which is why I asked him. I don't refer to barrels I have purchased from others as mine but give credit to the builder should someone ask. I don't think it's wise to speak for someone else. I also don't think it's wise to tell someone else what they have when you haven’t see or examined it. Clark it sounds like you are making a fair number of assumptions about other people and things you haven’t seen and thus don't know. I mentioned earlier if you want to talk brass vs bronze it's best to start a new topic.

Clark Badgett said:

I can cut some slack. Modern bronzes don’t look like old school bronze due to modern alloys. Just like there are also modern brasses that are almost as tough as some bronzes.
Take a look at the picture below. One rectangle is silicone bronze, the other is 260 brass. Can you pick which is which based on color?

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Both are copper alloys and there are myriad variations and additives in those alloys, that some look alike is not surprising since both are based on copper alloyed with a "silvery metal" but no place more than metal alloys, can looks be deceiving.

In my research into buying a AR era musket I have decided to go with an Indian gun, burst barrels BS not withstanding. Now I just need to decide on a distributor and Bess or Charleville but will "pull the trigger" on a "curry popper" soon.

Commodore Swab said:

When I specify "my" barrel it's one I built whether or not that is what nick meant is unknown which is why I asked him. I don't refer to barrels I have purchased from others as mine but give credit to the builder should someone ask. I don't think it's wise to speak for someone else. I also don't think it's wise to tell someone else what they have when you haven’t see or examined it. Clark it sounds like you are making a fair number of assumptions about other people and things you haven’t seen and thus don't know. I mentioned earlier if you want to talk brass vs bronze it's best to start a new topic.

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And he answered you several times. You are just too busy being your typical mental self. And stop thinking you are a forum moderator. You have no business tell me or anyone else what we can post and where.

TNGhost said:

Both are copper alloys and there are myriad variations and additives in those alloys, that some look alike is not surprising since both are based on copper alloyed with a "silvery metal" but no place more than metal alloys, can looks be deceiving.

In my research into buying a AR era musket I have decided to go with an Indian gun, burst barrels BS not withstanding. Now I just need to decide on a distributor and Bess or Charleville but will "pull the trigger" on a "curry popper" soon.

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Well best of luck. Neither look like what they are labeled as.

Clark Badgett said:

And he answered you several times. You are just too busy being your typical mental self. And stop thinking you are a forum moderator. You have no business tell me or anyone else what we can post and where.

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While he never direct answered me he has posted . . .
"Rice Colerain and Bobby Hoyt used 12 L 14 I think sometimes they use 12 L 15 Ed Rayl uses 8620 green barrels are 4140 it’s all published and you can even call them and ask them. But that’s the steel that my gun barrels are made out of. "

"Actually, I am making my own screw barrel pistol barrels on my lathe out of 8620 and 12L14 stock."

I assume this is what you mean and while not directed at me it did leave me questioning as asked and unanswered. If I missed a more clear explanation or pictures please direct me to what I have missed.

Clark Badgett said:

Well best of luck. Neither look like what they are labeled as.

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Not real stickler for detail, not a reenactor and like to tinker so I may go in for improving its looks more to spec if I get ambitious. I just want an AR era flintlock musket to play with, that I won't feel bad about if it gets dinged up and doesn't end up sitting because it's too valuable to play with. The way I understand it, between the big names, Bess and Charleville, the committee of safety muskets and non-standardized muskets, there were a lot of variations and personal touches added. At many points the AR seems to be a conflict of fight with what you got.

I am sure an Indian gun will be OK and if it ignites my interest in something more upscale, so much the better. Right now, a thousand dollars difference is a lot to me, and I have other things to do with it.

Commodore Swab said:

While he never direct answered me he has posted . . .
"Rice Colerain and Bobby Hoyt used 12 L 14 I think sometimes they use 12 L 15 Ed Rayl uses 8620 green barrels are 4140 it’s all published and you can even call them and ask them. But that’s the steel that my gun barrels are made out of. "

"Actually, I am making my own screw barrel pistol barrels on my lathe out of 8620 and 12L14 stock."

I assume this is what you mean and while not directed at me it did leave me questioning as asked and unanswered. If I missed a more clear explanation or pictures please direct me to what I have missed.

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You got some real issues. Seek some help.

Commodore Swab said:

When I specify "my" barrel it's one I built whether or not that is what nick meant is unknown which is why I asked him. I don't refer to barrels I have purchased from others as mine but give credit to the builder should someone ask. I don't think it's wise to speak for someone else. I also don't think it's wise to tell someone else what they have when you haven’t see or examined it. Clark it sounds like you are making a fair number of assumptions about other people and things you haven’t seen and thus don't know. I mentioned earlier if you want to talk brass vs bronze it's best to start a new topic.

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So if I were to say something like …. my house or home you assume i built my own house?

My barrels are mine barrels because i own them.

By the way, RobertT is looking for you, reach out to him if you haven’t already.

TNGhost said:

Not real stickler for detail, not a reenactor and like to tinker so I may go in for improving its looks more to spec if I get ambitious. I just want an AR era flintlock musket to play with, that I won't feel bad about if it gets dinged up and doesn't end up sitting because it's too valuable to play with. The way I understand it, between the big names, Bess and Charleville, the committee of safety muskets and non-standardized muskets, there were a lot of variations and personal touches added. At many points the AR seems to be a conflict of fight with what you got.

I am sure an Indian gun will be OK and if it ignites my interest in something more upscale, so much the better. Right now, a thousand dollars difference is a lot to me, and I have other things to do with it.

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Like I mentioned up thread. If you get ambitious and try to make any of those India muskets look the part, you will end up replacing almost every part. Even the barrel bands are made incorrectly, and won’t fit if you cut the stock to true size.

Clark Badgett said:

Like I mentioned up thread. If you get ambitious and try to make any of those India muskets look the part, you will end up replacing almost every part. Even the barrel bands are made incorrectly, and won’t fit if you cut the stock to true size.

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Clark is correct, you need to set your expectations at a reasonable level and i would always rely on originals for an appropriate basis for which to follow.

Clark Badgett said:

Like I mentioned up thread. If you get ambitious and try to make any of those India muskets look the part, you will end up replacing almost every part.

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Some people make a hobby of doing that with cars.

Like I said, if I get ambitious, key word being if.

FlinterNick said:

So if I were to say something like …. my house or home you assume i built my own house?

My barrels are mine barrels because i own them.

By the way, RobertT is looking for you, reach out to him if you haven’t already.

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You must have me confused with someone else, I have no idea who RobertT is or how i would contact him if i did.

When you constantly talk about building guns then machining barrels I made the mistake of assuming when you said "my" you were referring to something you built. My mistake, thanks for clarifying.

TNGhost said:

Not real stickler for detail, not a reenactor and like to tinker so I may go in for improving its looks more to spec if I get ambitious. I just want an AR era flintlock musket to play with, that I won't feel bad about if it gets dinged up and doesn't end up sitting because it's too valuable to play with. The way I understand it, between the big names, Bess and Charleville, the committee of safety muskets and non-standardized muskets, there were a lot of variations and personal touches added. At many points the AR seems to be a conflict of fight with what you got.

I am sure an Indian gun will be OK and if it ignites my interest in something more upscale, so much the better. Right now, a thousand dollars difference is a lot to me, and I have other things to do with it.

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As they say, you got to begin somewhere. If an Indian musket is all you can swing for now, I would be 100% in favor of you getting it. In time you may be able to get a much better gun, but at least you are in the Muzzleloading fold and aware of the possibilities that lay ahead. Just educate yourself about the gun you have and with that knowledge decide if it is really good enough for what you want. My guess is that you may decide to upgrade in due time.
Best of luck.

Relic shooter said:

Rob the reason India mfg muzzleloaders are made non-firing is strictly political, it's a third world dictatorship.
Not drilling the touch hole is a loophole that provides employment opportunities for these craftsmen.
As you state, these craftsmen produce some types of firearms not available elsewhere.

All the negative focus on India mfg. muzzleloaders makes one think it might be promoted by Italian replica arms competitors ?

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It's been said before, but it bears repeating. These same manufacturers make the same guns for domestic use. Touch holes drilled and all. But to export a working muzzleloader doubles the cost, more or less. So they export the sane guns they make for actual domestic use as working muzzleloaders without the touch hole drilled. They aren't by any means, other than the most pedantic missing the point means, designed to be decorative or anything like that.

That said, if you want to argue that what Indians consider safe and acceptable is not the same as what we considered safe and acceptable, then that argument at least has merit. I would counter, however, that the western companies importing them assume liability by drilling the touch hole and selling them as working muzzleloaders, so there must be some level of quality control.

Now, if you contact one of the armories yourself to import a gun directly from them, you could possibly get something made by the foreman's kid cousin who just made his first barrel. So it's probably a good idea to stick with the better known importers unless you like to live on the edge

Honestly, after 26 pages I believe the subject has been truly Beaten To Death.
Case closed.