Colt 1851 Navy—120 yards?

Tanglefoot said:

Shooting from 120 yards with a .36 Navy, the ball will hit with the approximate force of a thrown pebble of the same size, on a high trajectory. Hopalong Cassidy used to regularly shoot the gun out of a bad guy's hand, shooting from the hip from the back of a running horse too, but only in the movies. So did Tom Mix, and I didn't believe that either. Sure -- it could happen, once maybe -- but if it did, in real life somebody would fetch a rifle and blow the shooter out of his boots. By the way, I've seen the ground in Deadwood where Hickock shot Tutt and while I didn't measure it, I'm guessing the range was closer to 75 feet than 75 yards in that muddy street. Shooting with a handgun at a head-size target at long range would stretch the skills of a Bill Jordan, especially with the target shooting back. Being shot at tends to discombobulate your concentration and kick your adrenaline levels into overload.

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Didn't that shootout happen Springfield, Missouri?

45D said:

Maybe we'll get lucky and someone somewhere will post a link for the Hungarian "cap and ball" guy...

It may also show the op that 100 yard shots are definitely doable!!

Hope springs eternal !

Mike

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Well, I'm certainly not going to watch through all his videos, but you're certainly welcome to do so if "hope springs eternal". Should be a pretty good motivator. For me, it's just entertainment. Right now, I've got better and more interesting things to waste my time on.

I don't care what kind of arc the bullet would need to have to reach the target. It's still more than I would care to "bodily" stop. So yes,I would say it's more than likely quite doable.

There's a misconception that black powder guns aren't as powerful as their smokeless equivalent calibers. And I'd say if a 36 or 38 can turn a steel target at 120 yards, it's probably enough to tear a hole in a jacket rather than bouncing off. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that one with a catcher's mit.

Both Hickock and Tutt were standing sideways at the time of firing. However, it isn't known whether Hickock's pistol was a 36 or 44. He had many of both. But it was 75 yards - documented. There was a trial at which Hickock was acquitted as there were many witnesses - and it was said that Tutt drew first, so Hickock was protecting himself.

Hey, If Louis L'Amour could stretch credibility to the breaking point with some of his characters shooting ability so can you. After all, embellishing some of the finer points of a story is in the finest Western story telling tradition.

The shot could be accomplished with a bit of luck but dropping it to less than 100 makes it more probable. Look at a human an honest 120 yards away and you'll see the head is pretty small at that distance. I'm always amazed by movie pinpoint shots that exceed the accuracy potential of the firearm being used.

Dude said:

Here's the capandball youtube M De Land was talking about. And yes, he's tapping the wedge with his flask.

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He only tapped the wedge in the very first bench rest session. Not afterwards at all.

“Holding the reins of two horses with one hand, Austin Police Sgt. Adam Johnson raised his service pistol and fired a bullseye into the target some 312 feet away.

Down went Larry McQuilliams, and so ended his rampage through the streets of the Texas capital, where he’d fired more than 100 rounds from his AK-47 and .22-caliber rifles at buildings. The shot, from Johnson’s Smith & Wesson M&P .40 pistol, hit McQuilliams square in the chest and made the 15-year-veteran the toast of gun enthusiasts around the country.

“At a minimum, it was extraordinary shot,” said Army Maj. John Plaster, a retired Special Forces operator, long-range shooting expert and author of “The Ultimate Sniper: An Advanced Training Manual for Military and Police Snipers.”

StoryWriter85 said:

This is great, thanks! What does that mean, tapping the wedge with his flask? I'm a newbie to all this.

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I notice he's shooting bullets and paper cartridges and his barrel twist is 1 in 19 even twist. I wonder how well balls would have done as they usually make tighter groups. Gain twist I believe was developed for round ball shooting but does work with bullets as well. I've always wonder why as the front of the bullet is always trying to out twist the base.
That loading lever drop sure needs fixing !

Tanglefoot said:

Shooting from 120 yards with a .36 Navy, the ball will hit with the approximate force of a thrown pebble of the same size, on a high trajectory. Hopalong Cassidy used to regularly shoot the gun out of a bad guy's hand, shooting from the hip from the back of a running horse too, but only in the movies. So did Tom Mix, and I didn't believe that either. Sure -- it could happen, once maybe -- but if it did, in real life somebody would fetch a rifle and blow the shooter out of his boots. By the way, I've seen the ground in Deadwood where Hickock shot Tutt and while I didn't measure it, I'm guessing the range was closer to 75 feet than 75 yards in that muddy street. Shooting with a handgun at a head-size target at long range would stretch the skills of a Bill Jordan, especially with the target shooting back. Being shot at tends to discombobulate your concentration and kick your adrenaline levels into overload.

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That’s helpful, thanks. In the world of fiction I’m willing to stretch realism to its limits…but I want something like this to seem at least plausible, if not perfectly realistic. I don’t want to write it if it’s downright absurd.

Juice Jaws said:

If movies can have a gunfighter shoot 8,9, 10 times or more with a six gun without reloading I am sure your gunfighter can hit a man at 120 yards and drop him dead.

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That’s a great point!

Tanglefoot said:

Shooting from 120 yards with a .36 Navy, the ball will hit with the approximate force of a thrown pebble of the same size, on a high trajectory. Hopalong Cassidy used to regularly shoot the gun out of a bad guy's hand, shooting from the hip from the back of a running horse too, but only in the movies. So did Tom Mix, and I didn't believe that either. Sure -- it could happen, once maybe -- but if it did, in real life somebody would fetch a rifle and blow the shooter out of his boots. By the way, I've seen the ground in Deadwood where Hickock shot Tutt and while I didn't measure it, I'm guessing the range was closer to 75 feet than 75 yards in that muddy street. Shooting with a handgun at a head-size target at long range would stretch the skills of a Bill Jordan, especially with the target shooting back. Being shot at tends to discombobulate your concentration and kick your adrenaline levels into overload.

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If you will take time to consult a ballistics chart for round balls you will find that a 85 grain 36 cal ball can travel at over 600 fps at 100 yards from a model 51 Colt reproduction and I can damn well guarantee it will strike harder than a thrown pebble !
Does anyone have any actual knowledge of what Hickcock's projectile was ?

Take a look at the lead Capnball picked up from the 75 yard target. Flat flat flat

Louis L'Amour said that because people depended on their guns and used them all the time in the west, they got very good with them. He recounted events that seem impossible to me - like a challenge involving riding a horse full speed and passing three posts spaced something like 25 feet apart and no closer than 15 feet from them, and putting two bullets in a flattened area carved at the top. The person who wrote about this game was a very good shot but could only put one in each post. There were some who could put two in each post.

And then there's the story of Adobe Walls where Billy Dixon wounded an indian at 9/10 of a mile.

Another figure, though of the 20th century, is Elmer Keith. There are quite a few accounts of his kills at four and five hundred yards with pistols.

This needs to be put in perspective. At 120 yard with a Cap and Ball or any pistol, its a lob shot. Its not a sharpshooter shot. Sharpshooters did not shoot their targets with pistols, they shot them with a rifled gun and depending on what era and whose side etc etc etc.

So, yes you can take a shot at a mile if you want, once in a millions tried you hit what you are shooting at (note I did not say aiming). 120 yards with a pistol there is no aiming, you angel it up and guess.

Its why snipers have spotters. They see where the shot hit the ground and tell the shooter his setup is off and by how much. Then a 2nd shot (may or may not hit).

A sharpshooter and a pistol shoot are pretty close to being oxymoronic. No one sharp shot with a pistol.

So, 2.5 inches is considered acceptable with a modern pistol and certainly some finely tune BP will exceed that. Post Civil War was there any such thing? At 100 yards you are 10 inches (hoping there is no wind). So being generous lets call it 13 inches at 120 yards.

So that is what we call a manure shoot. Not given I am being shot at be the guy has a pistol or a rifle, its worth a try though at best you are likely to distract him (I am going to assume a guy here).

Your best shooter is limited by the equipment (and the equipment is limited capability wise to the skill of the shooter).

Now does a sharpshooter translate to a good pistol shot? No. Is it possible? yea. But would someone practice to hit things at 120 yard with a pistol. Oh hell no. That is what a rifle is for.

30-30? There is a reason its called minute of deer. Its more an Eastern US thing where the cover is thick and the shots are under 75 yards. More like 50.

I got pretty good with a modern pistol. 1.5 inches at 25 yards. I shot 100s of rounds to get there. How many people old west had the time to practice? Yea a few did but it was not a routine thing.

There were two phenomenal shots by a Baker Rifle in the Peninsula War. both by the same guy. Range is unknown, 400 yards probably a minimum. Pure luck (they laid on their back and supported the rifle with their feet for those longer shots). Was it worth a whack at 200 yards? Sure (you had a buddy to cover you while you reloaded). Worst case you just missed and you might well hit an adjacent person.

Sharpshooter and pistol shooter are a misnomer. Amazing shots were pulled off, but like the Baker shoots, a why not but you sure aren't counting on it.

For a guy with a Sharps? Yea, easy shot but even that is not guaranteed. You need a gun that is sub 1 MOA and a person who can shoot sub 1 MOA (a 2.5 inch at 25 is 10 MOA).

Longest sniper shot ever was proceeded by 2 shots. His spotter walked him in and the guys being shot at (3 as I recall) just stood there. No one ever said which of the 3 he was shooting at so the kill shot may have hit the adjacent guy.

Very interesting thread. I often shot the head off of a grouse at 15 feet or so [when I was much younger] in Idaho. Missed more than I hit, however. Polecat Edit: Lyman 1858 Remington

CyrusP said:

I can hit a 16” gong with my .36 some of the time. 1 or 2 in 6 shots. Definitely one. That’s once I’m dialed in with it. Keep in mind I’m standing still, not being shot at and know the distance. If a pistolero was Hickok-level, 90 is doable. With unmentionables, I’ve been practicing 100 yard or more for 28 years. BTW, I did a lot of my long range shooting in your town. I lived in Vegas years back in the desert where there was no issue practicing whenever I wanted.

PS 8” at 120 is stretching it (for me)
PPS is your shooter young? If he’s older there was no corrective vision unless you had means I’ve been told.

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We have a 50 and 100 yard target match at the NMLRA nats. Even the lower level competitors manage 2 out of their 5 shots inside 8 inches for the most part. None are handicapped by an open top type revolver that I am aware. ROAs, single shots, R&S and Remingtons mostly. At my range we have a 100 yard 8 inch gong I sometimes warm up on a few shots during my ML pistol practice. Never more than 5 shots and just holding a bit above the target using my 50 yard sight load. Never less than 2 out of 5 hits. Hard to get 5 out of 5 but sometimes. If I used a 2 hand hold that would be easier but I don`t shoot the 2 hand matches. Having shot a 1860 Colt in the Open Top match and seeing fellow shooters scores I don`t see a problem having at least 1 or 2 out of 6 hits inside 8 inches at 100 with a 2 hand hold for the top half of our match shooters. That is like a 9 ring shot at 50 yards...nsp

StoryWriter85 said:

If it’s lethal at 120, doesn’t that mean it hits pretty hard?

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I think it was Cole Younger in the Minnesota raid that took over a dozen hits, and went on to a long life.
Hitting hard would create an incapacitating wound even if not lethal vs right spot to produce a kill.
A .22 comes to mind. It can kill a man, but also produce a wound that’s only annoying

OK, it is time for one of you guys who have access to a 120 yard range to set up a target and drape a towel or something similar on it and shoot and see if the ball penetrates it, then report back.

I’m good at my 100 yard range to do it. I shoot alone 90% of the time.

dickydalton said:

He only tapped the wedge in the very first bench rest session. Not afterwards at all.

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He was just testing to see if his point of aim was changing due to a loose wedge after he saw it was staying put he didn’t do it on the next round volley.