A fowler for round ball accuracy

BillinOregon said:

Reading the posts and discussion regarding the Kibler fowlers -- with Jim's recommendation to choose the 20 gauge for PRB shooting vs. the 16 -- got me to wondering what the ideal roundball-shooting smoothbore would look like. We're talking a flint or percussion firearm designed for maximum accuracy without a rifled barrel, but still perfectly suited to the use of shot for bird-hunting. Not sure if this would be a true "smooth rifle" but a fowler with fowler architecture and balance, a barrel thick enough to safely and consistently take PRB pressure and probably a very small rear sight. Just curious if anyone has thoughts on the matter. I would think the proof of the pudding would be six-inch or smaller groups at 75 yards. Might be too high a bar.

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I'm right there with you Bill, I posted about this and asked the question in other threads. But me, I want a do it all smoothie. If I wanna smack a buck, or shoot some doves, squirrels, rabbits. I want to grab ONE gun. I got the answer of " have a rifle for shooting ball and a fowler for shooting shot" I have come to the conclusion that maybe a Kibler Colonial with a 58 smooth bore barrel would be the answer. You do get a rear sight and I think that it makes all the difference. Or could you dove tail a fowler or TG barrel for a rear sight or would barrel thickness be the issue?

Frontstuffer070 said:

I'm right there with you Bill, I posted about this and asked the question in other threads. But me, I want a do it all smoothie. If I wanna smack a buck, or shoot some doves, squirrels, rabbits. I want to grab ONE gun. I got the answer of " have a rifle for shooting ball and a fowler for shooting shot" I have come to the conclusion that maybe a Kibler Colonial with a 58 smooth bore barrel would be the answer. You do get a rear sight and I think that it makes all the difference. Or could you dove tail a fowler or TG barrel for a rear sight or would barrel thickness be the issue?

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On thinner barrels it can be an issue but the vast Majority of barrels are too thick and heavy anyway ,compared to original trade guns which are very light , so ....you can dovetail for a rear sight . I think the rear sight really helps a lot . Ive seen it in action at many shoots. For old eyes like mine , the rear sight has to be a lot further forward than it did 20;years ago so those long flats on the modern barrels , as much as I dislike them , can be beneficial for said dovetail ...you can tap out the rear sight out with a brass drift too if you want to compete in a smoothbore competition , easy peezy . Best of luck ! ....P.S. Larry's Zornes' smoothbore barrels are very accurate barrels ! The range officer had to tell me to quit shooting the 75 yrd. ground hog target . The 100 yard. steel was no problem either .....best of luck .... Larry is in the book , Jackson Ohio , give him a call. Great guy ....

olskool said:

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Dayum. Are yall pulling my leg?

ETA: Deja vu, @Rob M. ? LINK

.

yellowhammer said:

Dayum. Are yall pulling my leg?

ETA: Deja vu, @Rob M. ? LINK

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Ok ???

olskool said:

really amazing how accurate a smooth bore can be. here is a photo that has been floating around, master craftsman and apparently master shooter Tip Curtis shot this offhand 5 shot group at 50yds with a smoothie. that will humble you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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With a gun that he built and no rear sight either!

I tried to buy that gun from Tip....no luck.

While I enjoy shooting my custom flintlock rifles I am more at home shooting my flintlock fowlers, I've had many over the years mostly custom built smoothies and one original 1850's English side x side 15 ga.
My first experiences with smooth bore long guns were disappointing to say the least, my first few fowlers shot low with PRB's, so much so that I had to aim high to get the balls near the bull, but the barrel often would hide the target.
My remedy at the time was to sell the gun and try another, with time I learned that the guns were fine, it was my ignorance and lack of experience that was the problem.
The secret to accuracy with PRB's and to some degree shot loads with a smoothbore fowler is to find the correct load for your particular gun and that you load it consistently the same each time.
Today I still shoot my rifles occasionally but I have settled on two favorite flintlock fowlers, both are semi custom Center Mark Fusil de Chasse muskets, one in Walnut as per the originals and one in dark curly Maple, with my load both shoot within a clover leaf hole at 25 yds. and will group within an 1-1/4" at 50 yds, the group opens up to about 4" at 75 yds., all from a rest, at my age I don't do that well standing on my two hind legs.
But the point is that with the right load most smoothies are capable of fine accuracy.

Flint. said:

With a gun that he built and no rear sight either!

I tried to buy that gun from Tip....no luck.

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do you know what his load was? what barrel did he have?

olskool said:

do you know what his load was? what barrel did he have?

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I'm sure he told me the load, but I've long since forgotten. I didn't get the details of the gun...I didn't think to ask. This was back when I first discovered that there was more to this hobby than T/C or CVA production guns. I went into his shop hoping that he could fix a broken screw on a T/C Hawken. I discovered a wonderland of muzzleloading that I didn't know existed.

The smoothbore I own is my only one. It's 20 ga with a rear sight and quite accurate with ball both patched and bare. I shoot three shot groups at 50 yds FWIW. That tells me all I need to know. I say that because it has killed deer and I no longer hunt. I never had much use for a shotgun but this gun did pretty well with shot on paper targets. I've fired 50 yard groups well under 2" with patched ball and bare ball accuracy well under 3". Average at 50 yds came out to 2-3/4" with prb. I'm kinda anxious to try rolling tin cans with it at beyond 50 yds.

hanshi said:

The smoothbore I own is my only one. It's 20 ga with a rear sight and quite accurate with ball both patched and bare. I shoot three shot groups at 50 yds FWIW. That tells me all I need to know. I say that because it has killed deer and I no longer hunt. I never had much use for a shotgun but this gun did pretty well with shot on paper targets. I've fired 50 yard groups well under 2" with patched ball and bare ball accuracy well under 3". Average at 50 yds came out to 2-3/4" with prb. I'm kinda anxious to try rolling tin cans with it at beyond 50 yds.

that is kinda the same groups I get with my fowler. My search is to understand the flyer in each of me three shot groups. I can( off a solid rest) put two outta three in a nice 1 inch group but I always have a flyer that opens it all up to a 3 or 4 inch group great shooting by the by

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hanshi said:

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olskool said:

do you know what his load was? what barrel did he have?

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If it was anything like he recommended for a load for a rifle I bought from him back in the day it was bore sized balls and teflon patched started with a hammer. I'll guarantee his powder charge allowed the ball to stay supersonic all the way to the 50 yard target also.

Bob

Leatherbark said:

If it was anything like he recommended for a load for a rifle I bought from him back in the day it was bore sized balls and teflon patched started with a hammer. I'll guarantee his powder charge allowed the ball to stay supersonic all the way to the 50 yard target also.

Bob

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WOW! that ain't me. thanks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

My 58 smoothbore Colonial shot at 65 yards shot okay

Ballshooter said:

My 58 smoothbore Colonial shot at 65 yards shot okay

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I am terrible offhand, but my fowler will stack them at 50 yards and I am pretty consistent with 6” to 8” at 100. I shoot straight powder cards.

Duplicate post. Phone is lagging.

Ballshooter said:

My 58 smoothbore Colonial shot at 65 yards shot okay

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What is your load?

Polecat_Tom said:

What is your load?

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Load was 145 grains / 50 grains of corn meal with a thin shot card on top followed by a .567 ball and another thin shot card on top of the ball. 85 grains with the same 50 grains of corn meal with a thin shot card on top followed by a .567 ball and another thin shot card on top of the ball shot almost as good. I have refined my powder and since have dropped the charge I am not using store bought powder haven't in some years..So as usual work up to a safe charge. I will say corn meal has really made a huge difference in the accuracy department.

Some thoughts about smoothbores and roundball accuracy. If you test at 25 yd., you can see your results and immediately discern your aiming/shooting errors. Beyond that it could be you OR it could the gun, load, etc.. Second, if you use a patched RB, you don't need a combination that's so tight that you have to hammer the ball - patch down the bbl. Besides, there's no rifling for the patch to expand into. A thin over powder powder wad may help a tad with accuracy. However, you may need to adjust the powder charge and granulation for best results. In my 20ga. GRF NW Trade Gun, I use between 65 - 75gr. FFg and a .597" -.598" RB to get the results shown in post #13.

Can I use a bore sized RB with no wadding? You can try, as I have, but didn't get the accuracy I got with patched RB's of lesser diameter.

How about tow wads, fore and aft with RB's less than [your] bore diameter? Mike Beliveau has successfully done this, but you'll need 100gr. - 110gr. FFg in a 20ga. bbl. I tried this, but got erratic results.

How about loading a bare RB with an over shot wad? Try it: You may be surprised.

Lastly, can I try a over powder wad, RB, then an over shot wad. Again, you've got nothing to lose by trying.

In short, smoothbores are quite particular in their likes, especially since you have no rear sight to help your aim. For me, the patched RB was the quickest way to get accurate results even the it isn't historically correct.

One time years ago I won a woods walk with my smoothie. All I had to do was hit the twenty targets put out. Only to be disqualified later for using it. Seemed the local rifle guys were embarrassed by a
smoothie doing so well..! I love my smoothbores..