Seeking Opinions on a Recent Kibler SMR Purchase Experience

Johnny Too-Tall · Oct 4, 2024

Second-rate Marksman said:
First, I was never upset about receiving a refund—I was disappointed in the lack of communication that led to it… and the fact that my money is currently tied up in limbo while the refund is pending. My intention in posting wasn’t to seek “validation” but to share my experience for the benefit of others. Transparency in transactions matters, and discussing issues like these can help ensure that future buyers and sellers have smoother experiences.

As for the rifle, yes, I’m happy with the new one, but that doesn’t negate the concerns I had with the original transaction. I think it’s perfectly fair to address those in a constructive way. This is a forum, after all, and such posts are permitted. Why do you feel that moderators have the right to delete or close a thread simply because you disagree with its premise? Who made you the Forum Police?

Thanks for your input, but I’d ask that you keep in mind that there’s more to a situation than what appears on the surface. I’ve moved on, but that doesn’t mean I’d ever purchase from this seller again or recommend him to others. As long I continue to receive questions and comments on this thread, I’ll continue to reply to them.

Yeah there's more but I am not going to put you on blast since you seem to want to be the hero here. You and I both know your not perfect in this situation my friend. Just maybe you pushed the seller to the point he said to heck with this guy I am not even dealing with him anymore. Imagine being such a person the seller decided to say it is better to refund him all his money than to deal with you, that no money was worth it from you, here's your money back go away- we done here. Thats what the heck happened here. The seller apparently decided to sell it for $750 less to someone else than deal with you and make an additional $750 off YOU. How can you not see your not the victim your the problem. But in your words "its a forum after all and I can say that here."

jdw276 · Oct 4, 2024

Johnny Too-Tall said:
Yeah there's more but I am not going to put you on blast since you seem to want to be the hero here. You and I both know your not perfect in this situation my friend. Just maybe you pushed the seller to the point he said to heck with this guy I am not even dealing with him anymore. Imagine being such a person the seller decided to say it is better to refund him all his money than to deal with you, that no money was worth it from you, here's your money back go away- we done here. Thats what the heck happened here, your not the victim your the problem. But in your words "its a forum after all and I can say that here."

Per the OP he has bought two other rifles from the builder. I would think most builders like repeat customers and want to keep them. Plus why sell a rifle for less than out of pocket costs or so someone claims just to get rid of a good rifle?

Oh well my free comments just like yours.

Second-rate Marksman · Oct 4, 2024

Johnny Too-Tall said:
Yeah there's more but I am not going to put you on blast since you seem to want to be the hero here. You and I both know your not perfect in this situation my friend. Just maybe you pushed the seller to the point he said to heck with this guy I am not even dealing with him anymore. Imagine being such a person the seller decided to say it is better to refund him all his money than to deal with you, that no money was worth it from you, here's your money back go away- we done here. Thats what the heck happened here. The seller apparently decided to sell it for $750 less to someone else than deal with you and make an additional $750 off YOU. How can you not see your not the victim your the problem. But in your words "its a forum after all and I can say that here."

You’re making an awful lot of assumptions here, and you’ve totally mischaracterized me and the situation as a whole. Below are the extent of my communications with the seller. I think it’s clear to see that I was not obnoxious or ornery, and I stand by my conduct.

I’ve purchased and sold no fewer than a dozen firearms on this forum with nary an issue, so your attempts at trying to paint me as a difficult and quarrelsome person are completely and utterly misguided.

AlexB · Oct 4, 2024

Fanboys are gonna fan I wouldn't pay it any mind.
The $750 reduction says it all.

Second-rate Marksman · Oct 4, 2024

AlexB said:
Fanboys are gonna fan I wouldn't pay it any mind.
The $750 reduction says it all.

Thank you, Alex. I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks there was something rotten in the state of Denmark.

I figured there’d be some differing opinions on this matter, but I certainly never expected the level of irrationality or belligerency as exhibited by this guy. What a piece of work!

Second-rate Marksman · Oct 4, 2024

jdw276 said:
Per the OP he has bought two other rifles from the builder. I would think most builders like repeat customers and want to keep them. Plus why sell a rifle for less than out of pocket costs or so someone claims just to get rid of a good rifle?

Precisely. Thanks for sharing some sound reasoning.

Philip Lebow · Oct 4, 2024

As a long time 'smith, I have t say that maintaining your integrity with customers is part of being successful and honorable.
Sometimes even the most carefully set up work goes awry. Over the years, I have had to replace 2 handguns. One a plastic framed number,
where a pin punch slipped out of the jig and marred the frame, and the other, where a 1911 slide came out of the mill vise and was destroyed.
Customers both got new guns with the work they had ordered on them. completed, at NO cost..I still have these people as regular customers..

Second-rate Marksman · Oct 4, 2024

Philip Lebow said:
As a long time 'smith, I have t say that maintaining your integrity with customers is part of being successful and honorable.
Sometimes even the most carefully set up work goes awry. Over the years, I have had to replace 2 handguns. One a plastic framed number,
where a pin punch slipped out of the jig and marred the frame, and the other, where a 1911 slide came out of the mill vise and was destroyed.
Customers both got new guns with the work they had ordered on them. completed, at NO cost..I still have these people as regular customers..

Absolutely! That’s an excellent example of standing by your work and maintaining integrity. Mistakes happen, but how you handle them can make all the difference. It’s clear that your customers value not just the quality of your craftsmanship but the honesty and responsibility you show when things don’t go as planned. This kind of commitment builds long-term trust and respect, and it’s what separates true professionals from the rest. Thanks for sharing your experience!

sturmkatze · Oct 4, 2024

Smokey Plainsman said:
Probably. Might have to get creative and it could turn into a sticky situation if you know what I mean.

I dunno. It’d be hard. They’re pretty monitored. I’m guessing the Russians did it for science and, I think there was a married couple once?!

Appowner · Oct 5, 2024

Johnny Too-Tall said:
Yeah there's more but I am not going to put you on blast since you seem to want to be the hero here. You and I both know your not perfect in this situation my friend. Just maybe you pushed the seller to the point he said to heck with this guy I am not even dealing with him anymore. Imagine being such a person the seller decided to say it is better to refund him all his money than to deal with you, that no money was worth it from you, here's your money back go away- we done here. Thats what the heck happened here. The seller apparently decided to sell it for $750 less to someone else than deal with you and make an additional $750 off YOU. How can you not see your not the victim your the problem. But in your words "its a forum after all and I can say that here."

And how is it you can't see you're not helping the situation one little bit?

We are all human. We all make mistakes. Especially the more perfect among us!

totonap · Oct 5, 2024

Just wondering, would you have purchased it at the discounted price. If you had the chance.

Appowner · Oct 5, 2024

totonap said:
Just wondering, would you have purchased it at the discounted price. If you had the chance.

The kit runs what? $1200. Plus build/finish materials.
So what kind of friend takes advantage of someone to the tune of $500 ?

Lack of ethics and honesty.

Second-rate Marksman · Oct 5, 2024

totonap said:
Just wondering, would you have purchased it at the discounted price. If you had the chance.

That’s a good question. I don’t believe I would, given what’s come to light.

I’m not particularly anal about cosmetic issues, but when it comes to structural problems, I’d just as soon spare myself the headache.

Second-rate Marksman · Oct 5, 2024

Appowner said:
The kit runs what? $1200. Plus build/finish materials.
So what kind of friend takes advantage of someone to the tune of $500 ?

Lack of ethics and honesty.

I know the seller got a discount for buying Kibler “seconds” in bulk. I have absolutely no idea what sort of deal he gets, but I’d imagine it’s probably in the vicinity of a couple hundred dollars or more. If there was a flaw in the Woodsrunner (my first purchase from him), I certainly couldn’t find it. The .36 cal SMR that I bought shortly after had a small inclusion on the cheek rest, but I thought it just served to add some character. I was assured by the seller from the get-go that the vast majority of defects were fixed during the build process via judicious sanding. I dunno’… maybe Kibler’s getting down to the bottom of the rejects barrel!

Appowner · Oct 6, 2024

Second-rate Marksman said:
I know the seller got a discount for buying Kibler “seconds” in bulk. I have absolutely no idea what sort of deal he gets, but I’d imagine it’s probably in the vicinity of a couple hundred dollars or more. If there was a flaw in the Woodsrunner (my first purchase from him), I certainly couldn’t find it. The .36 cal SMR that I bought shortly after had a small inclusion on the cheek rest, but I thought it just served to add some character. I was assured by the seller from the get-go that the vast majority of defects were fixed during the build process via judicious sanding. I dunno’… maybe Kibler’s getting down to the bottom of the rejects barrel!

In light of that I would then think the seller might be more relaxed when a customer points out something questionable. Just too many questions to be answered before I'd ever consider buying from him.

mikesto44 · Oct 6, 2024

This has been interesting. My only comment would be if I had built (?) the kit. The crack issue should have been up front with it right away in the add. Plus I would have discounted it to the buyer in good faith.
With all the glues on the market. Dealing with a crack is for me a non issue if it's repaired well. I have a Longrifle stock that has a crack the full length of the ram rod channel. I glued it and it's still holding twenty years later. It's my deer gun and it has been shot hundreds of times.

LonestarShootR · Oct 6, 2024

Have no fox in the hunt. It seems you already had knowledge of the builders work with Kibler seconds. Things can be overlooked or forgotten about, it’s only human. He mentioned the repair to you albeit late but did do so. Was the cost of the rifle already reduced on account it was a 2nd?
He then refunded you after further questions from you which I think is ok. It’s in his right to do so just as it’s your right to back out of the deal. A business or seller doesn’t need your approval to refuse service. Sometimes the writing is on the wall with customers and it’s best to cut ties as in this case.

There’s always two sides to every story. It’s funny that you are trying to call him out by posting context clues without actually naming him.
Anyone with a brain can figure it out and he’s been watching the thread take its course.
Maybe he’ll chime in and maybe not.

Wirehair · Oct 6, 2024

It is my understanding that Kibler stock seconds are cosmetic, not structural. If a person is going to build and sell "seconds", any defect that could potentially affect the structural integrity of the rifle should be identified. Since the builder is apparently dealing primarily with seconds to benefit from the discounted kit price he should, at the very least, warranty the rifle and be prepared to replace the stock if it failed. Then everything is above board.

Johnny Too-Tall · Oct 6, 2024

LonestarShootR said:
Have no fox in the hunt. It seems you already had knowledge of the builders work with Kibler seconds. Things can be overlooked or forgotten about, it’s only human. He mentioned the repair to you albeit late but did do so. Was the cost of the rifle already reduced on account it was a 2nd?
He then refunded you after further questions from you which I think is ok. It’s in his right to do so just as it’s your right to back out of the deal. A business or seller doesn’t need your approval to refuse service. Sometimes the writing is on the wall with customers and it’s best to cut ties as in this case.

There’s always two sides to every story. It’s funny that you are trying to call him out by posting context clues without actually naming him.
Anyone with a brain can figure it out and he’s been watching the thread take its course.
Maybe he’ll chime in and maybe not.

Thats exactly what I was saying about "IDAHOMIE" ohhh wait that was his profile name before he got banned and removed from the page for not following the rules and acting out on here. He created a new profile now in which He now goes by "Second Rate Marksman" and wants to act like he is a saint and talks proper and plays the victim. Like I said in previous post there's so much more people on this forum don't know. I especially loved how he posted pics on the conversation and his comments here states edited under it- only he can change what he said on his text messages. Why was it edited. Hmmm likely the exact same reason he got banned from the page, not acting like an adult. But to save face here it got edited/changed. All good best of luck to ya IDAHOMIE I mean Second Rate Marksman

jdw276 · Oct 6, 2024

Johnny Too-Tall said:
Thats exactly what I was saying about "IDAHOMIE" ohhh wait that was his profile name before he got banned and removed from the page for not following the rules and acting out on here. He created a new profile now in which He now goes by "Second Rate Marksman" and wants to act like he is a saint and talks proper and plays the victim. Like I said in previous post there's so much more people on this forum don't know. I especially loved how he posted pics on the conversation and his comments here states edited under it- only he can change what he said on his text messages. Why was it edited. Hmmm likely the exact same reason he got banned from the page, not acting like an adult. But to save face here it got edited/changed. All good best of luck to ya IDAHOMIE I mean Second Rate Marksman

Not sure what dog you got in this fight but you sir are getting way to personally involved in the conversation. I would conclude you know the builder very well or are the builder but the personal way you are conducting yourself is not helping and I have not read one thing where the potential buyer has sunk to your level. As such I have made my decision about you. Enjoy your day and may you be safe and healthy in these times.

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