Possible gunpowder related tragedy

Are you SURE they weren’t smoking? Was someone operating a grinder or spark producing equipment? Every black power or smokeless reloading accident I know of was caused by both. Unless there was a propane leak.

More speculation here, but seems LIKELY there must have been a sizable quantity of powder on their reloading bench?

I always make it a point to have nothing at mine except the powder in the dispenser, and the only primers are in the feeder.

Everything else is put away in a separate room.

And I quit smoking 20 years ago, Thank God.

Sorry for your loss. I hope your friend fully recovers.

Powder storage, properly done is really only an issue immediately after an incident when a fire is started. If it is stored properly, away from the loading bench itself in a steel cabinet designed not to hold pressure (so as to forestall an explosion) it will be protected from sparks and will not ignite until a fire reaches it and heats it sufficiently.

You should always only keep what powder you are actually using on the bench at any given time. Remember storing powder in a non-temperature-controlled area (like outdoors in a shed) can lead to its premature degradation and also cause it to spontaneously combust. Heat is the enemy of modern smokeless.

Most accidents of this type are caused by primer dust accumulated in progressive presses or a cocked, misaligned or mishandled primer, exacerbated by excess powder laying around. Entire tubes of primers in a progressive press have been known to detonate like mini pipe bombs.

Loading black powder cartridges with drop tubes not designed for black is also hazardous, as with plastic, static electricity can build up and you could get a spark with steel, so a purpose-built drop tube made from brass is a must

Of course, smoking and or any open flame is an absolute no-no which should go without saying.

Handloading is an exacting and demanding hobby, it is somewhat miraculous that more are not injured, and it is sad that the rest of us need this kind of reminder to remain vigilant.

Sam squanch said:

Are you SURE they weren’t smoking? Was someone operating a grinder or spark producing equipment? Every black power or smokeless reloading accident I know of was caused by both. Unless there was a propane leak.

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I know that the survivor doesn’t smoke at all. I think the other smoked occasionally, less than one smoke per day, but knowing how careful he was I can’t imagine that he would have been smoking. But no, I can’t be sure. The deceased was operating a four stage press, the other watching and chatting. No other equipment in use, e.g. bench grinder.

beyu said:

More speculation here, but seems LIKELY there must have been a sizable quantity of powder on their reloading bench?

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That’s possible. I’m not certain but I think the property owner (the deceased friend) had several four-stage loaders.

The explosion was BIG and was heard up to 15 miles away. I don’t know how much powder would have had to ignite for an explosion that size.

Thank you for posting this. It brings to light what can happen in an instant and at times we don't get second chances. I am certainly one that gets complacent because I have been hand loading for a long time. Have well over 100lbs of powder and 100,000 primers on on. This has raised awareness of just how dangerous this can be.i will certainly change some of what I do while hand loading, etc.
My prayers go out to all involved with this tradegy.

Hard to say after the event - a local shooter has had a tray of Primers detonate in a hand priming press - really messed him up but he's ok now.
Also in Australia a shooter had a can of powder explode on him - luckily only damaging his house - that was put down to Double Base powder deteriorating and becoming sensitive. Normally Smokeless powder will just burn more or less violently. Black has one burning rate - Bang!!
Hope your neighbour recovers.

TNGhost said:

Loading black powder cartridges with drop tubes not designed for black is also hazardous, as with plastic, static electricity can build up and you could get a spark with steel, so a purpose-built drop tube made from brass is a must

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This is a myth
Static will not set off black powder, there have been tests, upon tests, purposely trying to set BP off with static and electric charges and it just does not happen. Search the internet and you can find videos of it.

A Myth that will not die.

French Colonial said:

This is a myth
Static will not set off black powder, there have been tests, upon tests, purposely trying to set BP off with static and electric charges and it just does not happen. Search the internet and you can find videos of it.

A Myth that will not die.

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Why do they (Lyman and others) continue to make and sell brass drop tubes specifically designed for loading black? Also, in gunpowder (black and smokeless) manufacturing plants they use brass tools and containers. As well, BP powder measures, flask spouts, etc. are in large part made from brass.

I can possibly see your point with plastic, but ferrous metals still have the possibility of sparking sans static. The plastic can still create problems by the static restricting the free flow of powder, even f static can't ignite it.

As far as using plastic though, why take chances based on the internet saying it's a myth?

kh54 said:

I know that the survivor doesn’t smoke at all. I think the other smoked occasionally, less than one smoke per day, but knowing how careful he was I can’t imagine that he would have been smoking. But no, I can’t be sure. The deceased was operating a four stage press, the other watching and chatting. No other equipment in use, e.g. bench grinder.



That’s possible. I’m not certain but I think the property owner (the deceased friend) had several four-stage loaders.

The explosion was BIG and was heard up to 15 miles away. I don’t know how much powder would have had to ignite for an explosion that size.

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Progressive loaders, if that is the four stage you mention, with primer feeds, especially the tube type, can be hazardous in this regard, as I said above primer "dust" can accumulate or a primer can get cocked in the feed and detonate or both. They have been identified for a while as culprits.

As far as the explosion, smokeless if not contained is just going to burn, real fast, but just burn. If in a container sealed it will cause an explosion, but it is going to have to get hot enough to start it burning first so it would be a secondary thing, and commercial containers are designed to "come apart" before reaching a high pressure.

Black on the other hand as was stated above, has one speed, boom. but if in closed containers protected from flame and spark it would too, have to get hot enough (less hot than smokeless) to go off.

As far as being heard a long ways off, I would think a single 1# can of black could easily manage that, depending on physical and atmospheric conditions. Of course, if it was the primer feed on the press, the first things to go would be the rest of the primers in the feed tube, and the powder reservoir on the press.

Smoking, while hazardous is probably not going to cause an immediate boom (unless dropped in an open container of black) while reloading, but an ensuing fire could. A primer detonating though surely would create an instant boom, even if no more than the rest of the primers went up in the feed device. One primer is loud. Fifty or a hundred would be, well, 50x or 100x louder or more.

TNGhost said:

Why do they (Lyman and others) continue to make and sell brass drop tubes specifically designed for loading black? Also, in gunpowder (black and smokeless) manufacturing plants they use brass tools and containers. As well, BP powder measures, flask spouts, etc. are in large part made from brass.

I can possibly see your point with plastic, but ferrous metals still have the possibility of sparking sans static.

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Metal sparks is a completely different issue. Ferrous metal tools can produce sparks but those are similar to the hot metal sparks of a flintlock. BP or smokeless dust in the air from manufacturing is also different than your workbench, that dust has more in relationship with grain dust, some find it hard believe but dust from corn causes explosions every year and you would not hesitate to pour corn through plastic tubes/funnels.

Static electricity will not set off BP, (again search the internet ) Lyman and others make brass components because people believe the myth and are willing to pay for something they do not need, people paying to fix non-existent problems is nothing new.

Edit
https://www.leesgunsmithing.com/can-a-static-spark-set-off-black-powder

Ok

kh54 said:

I know that the survivor doesn’t smoke at all. I think the other smoked occasionally, less than one smoke per day, but knowing how careful he was I can’t imagine that he would have been smoking. But no, I can’t be sure. The deceased was operating a four stage press, the other watching and chatting. No other equipment in use, e.g. bench grinder.



That’s possible. I’m not certain but I think the property owner (the deceased friend) had several four-stage loaders.

The explosion was BIG and was heard up to 15 miles away. I don’t know how much powder would have had to ignite for an explosion that size.

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Its still very sad. Just buddies enjoying the day with each other.not knowing what was fixing to happen.this life has very many mysteries. PRAY ALL HAVE PEACE

I pray to our lord and savior Jesus Christ for a swift recovery of your friend. Holy God please protect this man.

Smokey Plainsman said:

I pray to our lord and savior Jesus Christ for a swift recovery of your friend. Holy God please protect this man.

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AMEN

Worst problem I have, personally, is complacency - nothing happens for years and years and I get sloppy. Distracted, it's easy to get up and walk away from something powder-related, leaving a haz-mat-news worthy-insurance claim situation-to-be primed and cocked. Older I get, the more easily distracted I've become. Reading accurate" after-the-smoke-clears " reports really does make me think about how we do things around here. So, thanks for posting and updates.

First, to the OP, so sorry to hear of the loss of your friend and prayers the surviving friend heals well.

TNGhost said:

Why do they (Lyman and others) continue to make and sell brass drop tubes specifically designed for loading black? Also, in gunpowder (black and smokeless) manufacturing plants they use brass tools and containers. As well, BP powder measures, flask spouts, etc. are in large part made from brass.

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I'd say more so due to Lawyers than any alleged safety concern per se. Plus easier machining anf forming, at least from a production point of view. Oh, and also to increase sales .. to make someone buy another Lyman powder measure even though they already have one, LOL!

For that cited PROOF that static electricity doesn't set it off, see the links below:

Static Electricity and Black Powder - ctmuzzleloaders.com = http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

Flint62Smoothie said:

First, to the OP, so sorry to hear of the loss of your friend and prayers the surviving friend heals well.


I'd say more so due to Lawyers than any alleged safety concern per se. Plus easier machining anf forming, at least from a production point of view. Oh, and also to increase sales .. to make someone buy another Lyman powder measure even though they already have one, LOL!

For that cited PROOF that static electricity doesn't set it off, see the links below:

Static Electricity and Black Powder - ctmuzzleloaders.com = http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

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If static doesn't set it off, then why would lawyers be involved in that?

As far as production and brass being easier to work, they already make most of their stuff out of plastic and steel so being easier to work has nothing to do with it. Brass is also much more expensive than plastic or steel. Setting up separate production lines for something you are going to have fewer sales on, something people really don't need, doesn't make sense. I seriously doubt any minor increase in sales would even make up that investment difference.

TNGhost said:

If static doesn't set it off, then why would lawyers be involved in that?

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Because Company Lawyers do MANY things that don't make sense ...

I would like a update on the survivor please

R Ellis said:

I would like a update on the survivor please

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Thank you for your concern. In fact thank you to all who have shared kind thoughts and prayers. It will mean a lot to him when I’m able to share with him.

Mr.M. Is

My computer had a mind of its own yesterday - sorry about the incomplete response. I don't know what happened, but here's what I meant to write:

"Mr. M." is doing better than when I was with him a week ago. But he has been experiencing a bit of "hospital psychosis." I was told years ago that it is fairly common for trauma patients to become confused and disoriented and to turn on their doctors and even their families. M has been agitated and paranoid, but the doctors and nurses don't seem concerned. However, he had pulled free his IV and was refusing to go to the procedure room to change bandages. Yesterday he was starting to calm down and all seems better today. They will try a different schedule to change his bandages every third day instead of every day. This will also allow the docs to use general anesthesia. (I've been told that the wors part of burn care is changing the bandages. I shudder just thinking about it.)

I understand that M is likely to be hospitalized for weeks, as opposed to mere days. The expressions of support and concern on the forum will certainly help his recovery. Thank y'all again!