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Real1 said:
From what I understand about present guides in high-danger game country, they like to have both bear spray and a side arm.....sometimes a shotgun....depends on the guide. The bears can be on you at over 30mph, there's only a moment to react. They also say most 'incidents' happen when the people they're guiding do something stupid. There's also the mentality that if a bear or dangerous animal attacks, the guides need to work it out. Seems to me it should always be humans helping humans to survive.

And there's a distinct difference between a black/brown bear attacking versus a Grizzly. Grizzlies are twice the bear and twice the bad temperament if they wanna be. But any sow with a cub(s) is gonna be a scenario you want to avoid at all costs.

Kevin
Click to expand...
Some years in AK, more folks are mauled by black bear than Brown/grizzly (which are the same species by the way) only diet and location distinguish them. Also most brown bear encounters involve sows and cubs but some times a grumpy old boar will close if starving. Another fact that most folks do not know is that moose are as dangerous as bears in many instances. They charge and shoot their front split hooves out at you like spear points then once your down do the Rumba on top of you using their full weight to stomp a mud hole in you. I've watched a video of a man being stomped to death by a moose cow hear in Anchorage some years ago on the university campus about a mile from where I sit !
I personally had to kill ( 4 inch Smith ,44 Mag Kieth load) a large boar black bear ( about 400 lbs) that charged and nearly closed on a hunting buddy. Blacks are usually timid but when one doesn't run and starts stalking you, they mean to eat you !
 
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45D said:
Nope, you're just as confused as he is . . . They're both an "O" !! See? I keep telling you it's not an "open frame" explain what you mean ? The open top frame INCLUDES the arbor, so what is open about it?

Mike
Click to expand...
No top strap for better two side leverage and mass support !
 
Real1 said:
From what I understand about present guides in high-danger game country, they like to have both bear spray and a side arm.....sometimes a shotgun....depends on the guide. The bears can be on you at over 30mph, there's only a moment to react. They also say most 'incidents' happen when the people they're guiding do something stupid. There's also the mentality that if a bear or dangerous animal attacks, the guides need to work it out. Seems to me it should always be humans helping humans to survive.

And there's a distinct difference between a black/brown bear attacking versus a Grizzly. Grizzlies are twice the bear and twice the bad temperament if they wanna be. But any sow with a cub(s) is gonna be a scenario you want to avoid at all costs.

Kevin
Click to expand...
The trouble with bear spray is most folks employ it long before the bear is within range and often forget to factor in wind direction in the heat of the moment. It beats a sharp stick in most cases but I'll take my heavy belt gun with hard cast bullets when push comes to shove. I've sent a hard cast Kieth bullet through a bears spine and it went through him like hot cheese side to side just as ole Elmer said it would. Actually the first slug went through him front to back but missed the spine and the second went through side to side taking out the spine. He dropped like window sash weight with his wiring cut !
Actually I think the ole Walker would be a formal bear repellent with a full charge behind ball or bullet.
 
They also say most 'incidents' happen when the people they're guiding do something stupid. There's also the mentality that if a bear or dangerous animal attacks, the guides need to work it out. Seems to me it should always be humans helping humans to survive.
Click to expand...

Clients tend to guys with money and little sense. Bad shooting is common so the guides are fully prepared to deal with a bad shot. Some if not most/all shoot as soon as the clients gun goes off to ensure shot placement and a drop. Once a bear is pissed off then its really hard to stop.

And there's a distinct difference between a black/brown bear attacking versus a Grizzly. Grizzlies are twice the bear and twice the bad temperament if they wanna be. But any sow with a cub(s) is gonna be a scenario you want to avoid at all costs.
Click to expand...

Genetically the Brown/Grizzly is the same. Diet is the driver to size (I won't claim 100% but that is the info from the experts). A Brown bear in Salmon stream areas gets really big . Up on the North slope they are clearly smaller (been here since 1954, I have seem them from the Slope to South East (never been to South West AK though I spent 5-6 months out in Western AK - never saw a Brown bear out there though)

Interior Browns tend to smaller but there are a few food rich hot spots they get big (saw on Blond just on the East side of the Range out of Haines Junction, about as big as I have ever seen)

Biggest one I was happy not to see was North of Anchorage. We found the paw prints as it skirted the edge of a Campground we were building. They were a good 30% larger than any I ever saw. I was thinking the Psycho Grizzly (forget what the movie was). I was the sole crew guy staying in the campground (the rest were locals and the only time we built near their homes). I had bad dreams of a Bear Can Opener opening up my small travel trailer.
 
Shot placement is everything that is why I hunt bears with a .22 rimfire.........give me a break.
Click to expand...

Its the single biggest factor. You still want what gets you the best chance of penetration (though expansion plays its role as well)

I never hunted bears. Nothing in it for me. My step dads father killed something like 8 around their homestead. One of those interior good food zones. He used a pretty worn out 1903 Sporter aka 30-06 (I can't find the pictures, head was like as big as the grill on a Willies Jeep).

I never met his dad, passed before we met my Step Dad. All the Bears were safety of homestead, right or wrong if they were in the area he shot them. 30-06 would have been the standard back in the day. Only latter did the big gore and or magnums become mandatory.
 
I bet plenty of them got smoked with a 30-30 , 32 special and the 35 marlin/Remington. The 303 British which is considerably less powerfull than a 30-06 and just a little less energy than a 308 has killed a massive amount of big game simply due to the millions of them available surplus after WW11. I saw an old black and white film of the polar bear migration though some town way up north, Canada? polar bear breaks the door and comes right in the house. lady dropped it instantly with a single shot from a 303. Shot placement is everything.
 
Smokerr said:
Clients tend to guys with money and little sense. Bad shooting is common so the guides are fully prepared to deal with a bad shot. Some if not most/all shoot as soon as the clients gun goes off to ensure shot placement and a drop. Once a bear is pissed off then its really hard to stop.



Genetically the Brown/Grizzly is the same. Diet is the driver to size (I won't claim 100% but that is the info from the experts). A Brown bear in Salmon stream areas gets really big . Up on the North slope they are clearly smaller (been here since 1954, I have seem them from the Slope to South East (never been to South West AK though I spent 5-6 months out in Western AK - never saw a Brown bear out there though)

Interior Browns tend to smaller but there are a few food rich hot spots they get big (saw on Blond just on the East side of the Range out of Haines Junction, about as big as I have ever seen)

Biggest one I was happy not to see was North of Anchorage. We found the paw prints as it skirted the edge of a Campground we were building. They were a good 30% larger than any I ever saw. I was thinking the Psycho Grizzly (forget what the movie was). I was the sole crew guy staying in the campground (the rest were locals and the only time we built near their homes). I had bad dreams of a Bear Can Opener opening up my small travel trailer.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't have been able to sleep. my nerves would be a wreck
 
nick_1 said:
I bet plenty of them got smoked with a 30-30 , 32 special and the 35 marlin/Remington. The 303 British which is considerably less powerfull than a 30-06 and just a little less energy than a 308 has killed a massive amount of big game simply due to the millions of them available surplus after WW11. I saw an old black and white film of the polar bear migration though some town way up north, Canada? polar bear breaks the door and comes right in the house. lady dropped it instantly with a single shot from a 303. Shot placement is everything.
Click to expand...
Biggest I ever saw while black bear hunting above Tustumena Lake was a bit over 9 ft. I know because of talking to a hunter who told me he knew the guy that shot him the next year. He was headed for our camp until he caught our sent, turned and got out of Dodge like his tail was on fire. Smart Ole bear and lived a long life to get that big.
I've never killed a brown although I've hunted them twice on Kodiak with my pardner getting the shot both times. I have harvested 6 black bear and find them very good eating. The oil rendered from one has made very good bullet lube ! The last was killed with a .44 Mag at about five feet as he blew by me bearing down on my hunting buddy. He squared 6 ft and went about 400 lbs being fat as a hog when.
 
Cutting to the chase, we need to remember what the nucleus of this argument is all about - and it's not about bear protection. :)

What it comes down to is the proof that setting up the arbor on an open top so it butts solidly with the barrel well is the structurally sound way to go. The proof is the fact the open top can survive +p loads without coming apart.

Entering in data that it CAN'T withstand magnum loads wasn't ever the goal - although it's possible the Walker could possibly be up to the challenge.

I find it rather strange 45D getting all this negative feedback when he's clearly demonstrated he's succeeding. How can anyone, in the face of his successes, say that the open top is a weak design?

This reminds me of the two scientists back thirty or forty years ago who announced they'd achieved a process for cold fusion. You never heard such a ruckus! They feared for their lives - I don't know what happened to them, but sure hope they weren't murdered. You knew there had to be a lot more to the story, otherwise more 'knowledgeable' scientists would have either ignored them or laughed. So you knew there was something to it. (we all know the energy consortium could never allow cheap power to the masses).
 
actually that seems like your interpretation of the conversation. As a lay person non gunsmith it sounds to me like the conversation is about whats better. Open top or closed top with the majority saying closed and Mike saying open and the rest of us talking about bears and other cool guns and stories we have heard over the years.
 
Dude said:
Cutting to the chase, we need to remember what the nucleus of this argument is all about - and it's not about bear protection. :)

What it comes down to is the proof that setting up the arbor on an open top so it butts solidly with the barrel well is the structurally sound way to go. The proof is the fact the open top can survive +p loads without coming apart.

Entering in data that it CAN'T withstand magnum loads wasn't ever the goal - although it's possible the Walker could possibly be up to the challenge.

I find it rather strange 45D getting all this negative feedback when he's clearly demonstrated he's succeeding. How can anyone, in the face of his successes, say that the open top is a weak design?

This reminds me of the two scientists back thirty or forty years ago who announced they'd achieved a process for cold fusion. You never heard such a ruckus! They feared for their lives - I don't know what happened to them, but sure hope they weren't murdered. You knew there had to be a lot more to the story, otherwise more 'knowledgeable' scientists would have either ignored them or laughed. So you knew there was something to it. (we all know the energy consortium could never allow cheap power to the masses).
Click to expand...

Thanks Dude, I think it finally makes sense to more folks now after the realization that Elmer couldn't "hot rod" the Colt SAA either and other "small framed" SA's such as those listed. It is rather asinine to say "it can't be done" or "they'll never be . . . " when you know its been being done for 2 years!! How does that make sense?
Anyway, i appreciate your support and glad you grasp what I've been saying all along. I've never been looking to make these revolvers any more than they are, I'm just interested in finding out WHAT they are .

Mike
 
nick_1 said:
actually that seems like your interpretation of the conversation. As a lay person non gunsmith it sounds to me like the conversation is about whats better. Open top or closed top with the majority saying closed and Mike saying open and the rest of us talking about bears and other cool guns and stories we have heard over the years.
Click to expand...

Actually, it's not a "what's better" platform at all. I have top strap SA's as well. The open-top platform testing came about because of the 45acp cylinder which allows for easy testing. Again, I'm just trying to find out WHAT the "modern" open-top platform can actually do rather than what we've all been told.
That's really what it's all been about.

Mike
 
Dude said:
What it comes down to is the proof that setting up the arbor on an open top so it butts solidly with the barrel well is the structurally sound way to go. The proof is the fact the open top can survive +p loads without coming apart.
Click to expand...
+P is kind of relative don't you think?

+P in a 45ACP is not the same as +P in a 45LC
 

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