Hey everybody, I was hoping to get some input on my first muzzleloader. I like the idea of hunting with a traditional muzzleloader and plan on going with a percussion. The Investarms Gemmer Hawken seems like the best cost/quality ratio for my situation. I'm just stuck on which caliber to go with since it's only in 1:60 twist. I will be hunting deer, elk, and maybe pronghorn with it. My thinking is with the 50 cal; I can shoot the PA conical for elk and round ball or the conical for deer/pronghorn. If I go with the 54, I'm stuck with round ball for everything. So my questions are as follows: Does anyone have experience for if the PA conical shoots well in the Gemmer Hawken? Does anyone know which would perform better on elk? 54 round ball or 50 PA conical? Thanks!
PA Conical vs 54 RB Advice
- Thread starter Aj
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
So your question is a tad difficult. We, myself and other members can answer "on paper", but that might drastically change when you try shooting the real thing.
The "PA Conical" is only slightly heavier than a .530 round ball, It's shape should give it slightly better ballistics, as well as better penetration. Will that be enough to make it the clear choice over the .530 round ball? Unknown.
Depending on the distance at impact, there might not be that much deformation of the PA Conical, so when compared to the .530 ball, the ball is making a slightly larger hole in the animals. Further, the slower twist on the .54 barrel will allow stout powder charges, so at 100 yards you might be looking at almost identical performance.
I love roundball, but, All other things being equal..., which is a fancy way of saying if you take the accuracy gamble and it pays off in the rifle that you chose, I'd recommend the .50 because you mentioned pronghorn. You may be shooting at them at the limit of your effective range, and in addition to the PA Conical, you may find that a TC .50 Maxi-Ball or a Lee R.E.A.L. bullet (you'll need to hunt down a mold for either) is even better, and flies well enough to give you a proper shot out to 150 yards. In any case I'd recommend you get closer than 100 yards be it pronghorn, deer, or elk.
LD
The "PA Conical" is only slightly heavier than a .530 round ball, It's shape should give it slightly better ballistics, as well as better penetration. Will that be enough to make it the clear choice over the .530 round ball? Unknown.
Depending on the distance at impact, there might not be that much deformation of the PA Conical, so when compared to the .530 ball, the ball is making a slightly larger hole in the animals. Further, the slower twist on the .54 barrel will allow stout powder charges, so at 100 yards you might be looking at almost identical performance.
I love roundball, but, All other things being equal..., which is a fancy way of saying if you take the accuracy gamble and it pays off in the rifle that you chose, I'd recommend the .50 because you mentioned pronghorn. You may be shooting at them at the limit of your effective range, and in addition to the PA Conical, you may find that a TC .50 Maxi-Ball or a Lee R.E.A.L. bullet (you'll need to hunt down a mold for either) is even better, and flies well enough to give you a proper shot out to 150 yards. In any case I'd recommend you get closer than 100 yards be it pronghorn, deer, or elk.
LD
Thanks for the input! That gamble with the PA Conical being accurate is what’s holding me back. The .54 is almost insured that it will have a load to shoot. However, I think I’d rather hunt elk with a .50 conical (if it shoots straight). Since I’m in Colorado, I need either a 54 ball or .50 conical (round balls too light) for elk.
You can find conicals for a .54. No Excuses come to mind. My .54 will shoot round ball or Great Plains conicals equally as good. It has a 1:56 twist. I personally would give the nod to the .54 for western big game hunting in Colorado wether I was using a conical or a round ball, since you can’t use a round ball out of a .50 for elk.
longcruise
70 Cal.
Yes, the "Colorado dillema". That regulation change got many long time trad ml hunters looking at alternatives. As a fellow Coloradan I understand. I personally am well set with 54 and larger rifles so it was not a problem for me but most of my family members are equipped with 50 cals so I purchased several boxes of PA conicals to test. As regards accuracy, they are very accurate. As regards killing power my own experiences both personal and observed say that you are not under gunned with a 50 caliber ball on elk. Therefore you should not be with a PA conical.
Likewise, the 50 would not be inherently better than a 54 for antelope or deer. It's probably more important that you have a gun that fits you and is comfortable to carry over the miles that usually separate us from our elk.
I'm risking setting off the never ending discussions of the adequacy of balls vs bullets and 50 vs 54 but so be it. I'll reference a member here who can attest to adequacy better than I. So, iff @beardedhorse sees this maybe he will chime in.
I have a physical impairment that makes loading PRB's difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. I prefer a conical over a PRB as I don't have a patch to mess with, try to keep centered.
From my .54 Cal Leman Green MT barrel I shoot 54 caliber, Minie, hand cast pure lead from Lyman 533-476, hollow base, https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/129/1/ball-54-minie lubed with SPG Lube. These Minie's have a hollow base (as the Pa Conical's do) that permits expansion of the base into the rifling when it goes BOOM. That allows the bullet to engage the rifling very well.
I shoot this Minie over 100gr FF. I've went as high as 110FF but accuracy is better and consistent at 100gr FF.
Now, one think I've done is expanded the base of each Minie. If you just hold the Minie over the barrel it will drop all the way to the bottom with no resistance in a clean barrel. In a fouled barrel it may or may not stop before hitting bottom.
So, using a Lee Universal Expanding die I've simply "bumped" each conical into the die to get the OD to a tad more than .540. This allows easy loading and the Minie will stay put from the normal jostling of hunting.
Here's a 100yd target using either GOEX-FF or SWISS-FF....100gr.
It certainly packs a punch!!
From my .54 Cal Leman Green MT barrel I shoot 54 caliber, Minie, hand cast pure lead from Lyman 533-476, hollow base, https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/129/1/ball-54-minie lubed with SPG Lube. These Minie's have a hollow base (as the Pa Conical's do) that permits expansion of the base into the rifling when it goes BOOM. That allows the bullet to engage the rifling very well.
I shoot this Minie over 100gr FF. I've went as high as 110FF but accuracy is better and consistent at 100gr FF.
Now, one think I've done is expanded the base of each Minie. If you just hold the Minie over the barrel it will drop all the way to the bottom with no resistance in a clean barrel. In a fouled barrel it may or may not stop before hitting bottom.
So, using a Lee Universal Expanding die I've simply "bumped" each conical into the die to get the OD to a tad more than .540. This allows easy loading and the Minie will stay put from the normal jostling of hunting.
Here's a 100yd target using either GOEX-FF or SWISS-FF....100gr.
It certainly packs a punch!!
kelvinator
32 Cal.
@ChuckJonesWagon What is the twist rate of your barrel ?
I shoot PA Conicals in 48 and 66 twist with pretty good results. Seems that they do better when being pushed a little harder, 80gr Goex works for me.
Chuck beat me to it. The .54 Minie should be a good conical option. I shot .54 Hornady GPs out of my 1-65 twist Rocky Mountain Hawken. Those are not made anymore, but that Minie is very close to them.
Green mountain 1-70 twist
I personally don’t like the 50 cal round ball and use either 54 or 58 caliber round ball shooters. All my flintlock hunting is on open Pa. public land and sometimes the shot is not a perfect 25 yd broadside shot. The larger calibers make a big difference. When it comes to the Pa conical in a 50 cal there is no comparison to the 50 RB. Our group has been using them since they were made legal in Pa. With my Great Plains 1-60 twist they are very accurate and deadly. I have no other rifle that has dropped more deer in there tracks than with this combination and I have shot deer slightly over 100 yds.
This makes me wish Buffalo would bring back the old Ball-et bullets in all the calibers they used to offer them in.
Or Hornady would expand the PA line to include .45 and .54 calibers.
Or Hornady would expand the PA line to include .45 and .54 calibers.
Last edited:
Ditt44
40 Cal
I recently began shooting the PA Conical in a PA Hunter carbine (1:66). I have found that with equal loads of 70 grains of Swiss 3F that the RB and Conical give similar accuracy at 50 yards. The Conical is obviously hitting lower but not so much that I could not swap between them and do a little hold-over IF it was necessary. I have opted to stay with the RB for this season as it shoots so darn well I can't reason myself out of it. I have not tried them in a 1:48 barrel, I have two that I should just to see how they group.
I would have no problems or concerns using the PA Conical though and with more range time, might be swayed to convert. I also wish someone would make them in a .45 and.54, I would think they would sell very well.
I have a few dozen hand-cast Maxis in .50 and .54 that I have no love nor need of if anyone is interested.
I would have no problems or concerns using the PA Conical though and with more range time, might be swayed to convert. I also wish someone would make them in a .45 and.54, I would think they would sell very well.
I have a few dozen hand-cast Maxis in .50 and .54 that I have no love nor need of if anyone is interested.
I tried the Lee real bullet in my 54. That does not have a hollow base. Very poor results.
kelvinator
32 Cal.
I have a Santa Fe Hawken with the .53 cal bore and have wondered if there was a possibility of finding a conical that would load and shoot well from it.
My barrels twist is 1:66 I believe, and I have measured the groove to groove diameter at .533", or maybe that was the land to land diameter... I'll have to double check that.
One more question for @ChuckJonesWagon, do you know the diameter of the as cast Lyman 533-476 before expanding the base?
Regards
My barrels twist is 1:66 I believe, and I have measured the groove to groove diameter at .533", or maybe that was the land to land diameter... I'll have to double check that.
One more question for @ChuckJonesWagon, do you know the diameter of the as cast Lyman 533-476 before expanding the base?
Regards
My experience in both my RMH and Frontier (both .54 with 1-65 twist) was the same with solid based conicals, even with a wad. They tumbled. But with a hollow base, both rifles were deadly with the Buffalo Ballet or the Hornady GP and no wad. Not a lot of chioce anymore in a .54 hollow base conical. That minie from the Lyman mold would be my go to if I wanted to go back to conicals.
Are you stuck on the Gemmer as your fav of what's in your range? If so that's the same rifle as the old Lyman Great Plains rifle. Drop in barrels can still be had for those in different twist rates to suit your needs. The GP Hunter models had 1-32 and later 1-24 twist rates, used ones pop up on the classifieds here now and then both barrels and rifles. A new one can be had in .50 here https://muzzle-loaders.com/collections/muzzleloader-rifle-stocks/products/investarm™-gemmer-hawken-hunter-replacement-barrel-1-24-twist-rate-32-inches-iaghh
Dixie Gun Works doesn't have any Gemmer like rifles but they do have Investarm made Hawken types with 1-48 twist barrels a tad cheaper than a Gemmer goes for. https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...+PLAINS+HAWKEN+RIFLE+50+CALIBER+BY+INVESTARMS
Or if you don't mind an easy kit or Pedersoli the Scout Carbine kit is in the same range. They call it a carbine but has a 28.5 in barrel with a 1-32 twist rate. The barrels come blued so don't need messed with unless you want to. That leaves sanding and finishing the wood and brass.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...soli+Scout+Carbine+Kit+.50+Caliber+Percussion
Just throwing out some options.
Last edited:
That's one I can't answer. I just went out and mic'ed the diameter of the Minie's ....but they are prepped for shooting. I bump them out to a diameter of .550 plus or minus a few thousands.
I do know that without bumping the base the Minie will drop to the bottom of my .54 barrel with practically no resistance. So, if you know the diameter of the lands, that will tell you something.
