17 century gunsmithing?

[Fabian23]

Does anyone have info on the quality of barrel making in Europe in that era. What methods were used, any difference with 18th century work?

I know screw thread cutting was particulary difficult in general back then so I'm wondering about the how breechplugs were fitted :hmm: Did musketeers half expect their guns to blow up or were they reliable :thumbsup: I'm guessing relatively low quality powder and windage kept pressures down generally but I'm just curious...

 

[dave_person]

Hi Fabian,
Many makers made fine sturdy gun barrels particularly in Spain, Portugal, and Italy. The process did not change very much in the 18th century. Spanish barrels were especially prized because the iron ore in Spain was extremely high quality and they perfected barrel making such that most makers in other countries tried to copy their methods. If you want details I suggest reading a copy of "Espingarda Perfeyta", which is readily available from Amazon.com. It is a 17th century manual of gunmaking by Portugese gunsmiths written during the late 17th century but published in the early 18th. The book has an English translation. Also, rifles were common, particularly in the German and central European states, so many barrels had to hold up under gas pressures behind tight fitting bullets.

dave

 

[J.D.]

To add to what Mr. Person said, threads were cut with screw plates, similar to our modern threading dies, except the threads were progressively swagged in the soft wrought iron, rather than cut, as modern threads are.

Taps were used to progressively swag female threads, instead of cutting through the grain of the wrought iron, which would weaken the threads.

The hard part of making threading tools is making the tap. Once the tap is made, making a die is almost as easy as threading a hole and hardening the steel.

IMHO, taps were made using the Masters, tooling, then new screw plates were made using the newly made taps.

God bless

 

[Fabian23]

Thanks for the replies gents. Most informative! How did European barrelmaking compare to the Japanese? It seems that while European matchlock barrels have a good 3-4mm of wall thickness at the muzzle, the Japanese matchlocks can have up to double that thickness (not including flared or decorative tulip muzzles)

 

[ChrisPer]

When you see the wall thickness of many 18th-century guns you realize that thickness in the front part is not about strength from bursting, more about confidence in the gun and weight for stable deliberate aiming.

Gunpowder in previous centuries was quite variable; but I am told that it could be very powerful, with some fine serpentines having finer grain than corned powder and so a faster burn.

 

[Fabian23]

The muzzle on a Japanese matchlock is generally a separate part welded on. I was refering to the wall thickness at the muzzle excluding this part, i.e the thinnest part of the barrel.

My comment is more to do with the fact that as far as I know, European barrels consisted of strips wrapped around a mandrel and then hammer welded together (please excuse any laymans terms), the Japanse seemed to use the same technique but then added up to three sheets rolled in a spiral over the initial twisted core, progressively hammer welding the layers together which seems to be a case of massive over-engineering compared to the process the Western world was using.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Fabian,
I would say (not knowing more than your description of Japanese barrels) that it probably was over-engineering unless they did not have access to high quality iron. Spanish barrels in the 17th and early 18th century were famous for their strength, quality, and lightness. Often they were so light weight that gunsmiths did not dovetail lugs on the bottoms to pin them to the stocks. Instead they wrapped light bands around the barrels that were pinched together into a lug on the bottom for the pin or barrel key. Very often the barrel band fit over the stock like on later military muskets. They were masters at spirally wrapping and welding barrels and shaping them beautifully. The octagon to round barrels so popular then and today for fowling guns are historically known as barrels in the Spanish fashion. Espingarda Perfeyta describes in grest length how to determine the quality of iron skelps. They knew what they were doing.

dave

 

[robinghewitt]

I know screw thread cutting was particulary difficult in general back then so I'm wondering about the how breechplugs were fitted :hmm:

A musket breech plug c1640 :thumbsup:

 

[Fabian23]

Looks just like the threads on Jap breechplugs.

What is the purpose of the plate? Looks like some system to have a replaceable flash hole of some sort :hmm:

 

[robinghewitt]

What is the purpose of the plate? Looks like some system to have a replaceable flash hole of some sort :hmm:

Someone, probably in the 19th century, restocked the barrel and fitted the late pattern lock which has it's own pan. This meant filling in the mortice.

It arrived with the fillet bent out of shape, I bent it straight and it lasted only one or two shots before it looked exactly like it did when I got it :idunno:

 

[Fabian23]

I see!

You shot/shoot with it? Ball or blanks?

I am negociating with a dealer friend of mine to get my greasy mitts on an original matchlock and I am sorely tempted to see how it fares compared to my 1805 musket.

 

[Elnathan]

Hi Fabian,
I would say (not knowing more than your description of Japanese barrels) that it probably was over-engineering unless they did not have access to high quality iron.

Japanese iron is not particularly high quality, downright poor for the most part, I believe. That is why they tended to do a lot of layering and folding when making swords and suchlike - it helped drive out the impurities. European steel was considered very high quality by the Japanese.

 

[robinghewitt]

Have you read Dud Dudley's book? I think it's called Martellum Martis, or something like that.

Dud has an exclusive on extracting iron with "sea cole" rather than the usual charcoal, the charcoal burners hate him and regularly attack his refineries. His writings are usualy an attempt to get a bit of government protection in exchange for securing their supply of iron.

Dud produces various grades of iron, probably depending on the quality of the ore. The more expensive varieties are more suited to what he calls "fining" than the rest.

Was fining merely beating the crud out or did he know how to puddle? He keeps his secrets close to his chest :grin:

Back in the iron age, fined iron was used as money, the so called currency bars. They had big incentives to make it less labour intensive.

Edit: Found it, it is Mettallum Martis: or, Iron made with Pit-coale, Sea-coale, &c. And with the same Fuell to melt and Fine Imperfect Mettals, and Refine perfect Mettals. London, printed by T.M. for the Authour. 1665

 

[himem777]

I have heard many people tout the high quality of Japanese matchlocks (and swords for that matter). One thing that is often overlooked is the fact that most of the best surviving examples were contemporaneous with Carl Mauser, and not Karl IV von Luxemburg.

 

[The German]

I were able to handle some old 1780-1830 european guns once and I was impressed with the quality and craftsmanship - in fact so far I have not seen anything simmilar ( as far as muzzleloaders goes) built today.

 

[himem777]

There is a European website that has pics of original guns in great detail. I haven't found it since my PC crashed, but it I do Ill post it. If anyone else has it It would be useful for this topic.

 

[himem777]

Found It... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php?