1700's Fusil Musket identification

[Mrbill55]

I originally started a thread in the Flintlock subforum, then found this one a few minutes ago which appears to be a better fit for identification purposes. Bare with me as I load all 51 assorted pictures here (10 at a time)

I've owned this musket for over 30 years, received it in trade against an unpaid debt, I was told it was a 1740's Dutch Musket at the time, but know nothing else in regards to it's history.
So after reading threads here for the last month, I'm wondering if anyone can assist in identifying this musket

Thanks in advance,

Bill

 

[Mrbill55]

2nd batch of ten

 

[Mrbill55]

3rd set of pictures

 

[Mrbill55]

4th set of pictures

 

[Mrbill55]

5th set

 

[Mrbill55]

Last one, yes, in alphabetical order

Thanks in advance for your time and expertise.

Bill

 

[Flintlock1640]

I'll give it a go. The barrel marks look Spanish to me. Usually would have brass inlayed with name or initials of the maker. I believe the brass has come out of yours so it is hard to recognize. That lock is definitely Italian, and early. I believe the furniture is also Italian. This style lock dates back as far as the 1670s and and modern as maybe the 1740s so it's hard to date. The shape of the hunting bayonet that came with it as well as the trigger guard make me think 1st quarter 18th century, possibly as far back as the last decade of the 17th century. Very interesting musket.

 

[rickystl]

I agree with Flint in Post #7. A good guess. The Spanish barrel on an Italian gun would not be unusual since Southern Italy was controlled by Spain during this period. But the overall stock and lock architecture has the flavor of something from Northern Italy. It's definitely an interesting and early musket. It would likely fetch a better price today than the original 30 year old debt. LOL Congratulations. A very nice piece.

Rick

 

[Mrbill55]

Thanks guys, all feedback and guidance is greatly appreciated as we gather information to organize our estate for the next generation.

Bill

 

[JamesT]

Very nice piece

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

The butt plate screw heads I’ve seen on real Dutch fowlers I’ve handled have been HUGE, a good 1/2” or bigger in diameter, with a big rounded dome ‘pan head’ style that has to be a good 1/4” proud of the plate surface.

Man … my shoulder hurts just looking at them!

 

[lexington1]

A really cool gun. I would say it's German or Dutch, maybe 1760ish. I only use that date because I have a military Rev. War Jaeger rifle with almost exactly the same lock. It could be earlier, though. German and Dutch guns can fool you. I have no idea about the barrel marks. I have seen several German and Czeck pistols that have had the tang covered in brass like this one. It's interesting that it has a flat toe, like a rifle. But the furniture, engraving' and carving at the rear of the tang looks French too, so? How's that for a big I don't really know? I REALLY like it!

 

[lexington1]

The butt plate screw heads I’ve seen on real Dutch fowlers I’ve handled have been HUGE, a good 1/2” or bigger in diameter, with a big rounded dome ‘pan head’ style that has to be a good 1/4” proud of the plate surface.

Man … my shoulder hurts just looking at them!

You're right. Also the German and Dutch military muskets are crazy large! This is on an early Dutch musket.

 

[rickystl]

The engraving on the brass hardware - including the punch mark decoration - looks Italian to me. Even the thumb piece. The brass overlay on the barrel tang is a familiar feature on personal/sporting guns from Northern Italy. The overall stock architecture and the lock do indeed look 1750 or earlier.

Interesting side note: Personal/sporting guns from Southern Italy (controlled by Spain) usually turn up with Catalan style stocks and Spanish style miquelet locks. Shoulder arms from Central and Northern Italy tend to have more traditional European style stocks and either Roman style miquelet or traditional French style flintlocks.

Rick

 

[FlinterNick]

Looks like a British fusil probably a personalized fusil. I’d say french and Indian war era. A couple of things tell me it’s British. 1. The frizzen spring final and 2. The thimble styles.

 

[lexington1]

I think you guys are right, but the stock to me is definately German or Dutch, with those stubby tear drops behind the lock mortice. It's like a mixture of everything. Still a really nice fusil!

 

[nhmoose]

I bet them big screw heads hurt some when it fires! Ouch!!!

 

[Stophel]

I have seen this gun somewhere before.

While the barrel marks have the appearance of being Spanish, that really doesn't mean anything (the barrel marks may have had gold in them, which has been pried out). Real and fake Spanish barrels were used all over Europe. The gun looks Dutch, or perhaps even more likely Belgian. 1740-1760. I see nothing Italian about it. The bayonet would put it in the category of an officer's fusil. And very nice and rare that the bayonet is still with the gun!

The buttplate is most interesting as it has a round toe, but the bottom of the stock is flat... yet the buttplate fits with the rest of the hardware, and it looks like it belongs on the stock otherwise.

 

[Mrbill55]

I have seen this gun somewhere before.

While the barrel marks have the appearance of being Spanish, that really doesn't mean anything (the barrel marks may have had gold in them, which has been pried out). Real and fake Spanish barrels were used all over Europe. The gun looks Dutch, or perhaps even more likely Belgian. 1740-1760. I see nothing Italian about it. The bayonet would put it in the category of an officer's fusil. And very nice and rare that the bayonet is still with the gun!

The buttplate is most interesting as it has a round toe, but the bottom of the stock is flat... yet the buttplate fits with the rest of the hardware, and it looks like it belongs on the stock otherwise.

Except the other thread I started on this site before I found this subforum, I may have posted pictures 15-20+ years ago elsewhere online when I last unrolled it from it's warm blanket covering. Otherwise, it's never been shown, at least not while we have owned it. Would be interesting if there is another like it out there. I've learned so much in the last few weeks here. Eventually I'll have to find someone in a few hours driving distance to actually appraise it for estate purposes.

Thanks again and keep it coming.

Bill

 

[Conquerordie]

No expert but I'm going to throw out there Dutch, but a hunting gun not musket. It was somewhat common for well off men to have guns for hunting with bayonets. Seen it on Dutch and German arms. I don't see anything that says military to me. Either way it's a great piece.