1833 Dated Harpers Ferry 1816

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2POP

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Hello all...New to the forums & first post ... Ran through a few Search pages here looking for info on the 1816 muskets and appreciate the high level of expertise that can be found here... Thanks for a Great place......
I have acquired a cut down Harpers Ferry 1816 FL musket w/ 69 cal. smoothbore 30 in bbl... The lock is 1833 dated... 6 ½ inches long...the bbl tang is also 1833 dated...It has inspection initials and marks stamped in various places over the gun...and I’ve identified the block initials of Adam Rhulman AR...and James A Schaeffer JAS as seen in the photos...The man I recently purchased it from said he purchased it as is in 1954 when he was in college in Utah...He speculated it might be some kind of experimental weapon... But in all the years he had it he’d never found out anything about it saying that all of Harpers Ferry records were destroyed in the famous John Brown raid... I’ve seen net photos of other cut down 1816s with varying bbl lengths...some with the front bbl bands like this one and others modified...But all of those have been percussion converted as was the practice for the later types net research has shown...I’d appreciate the board’s input as to what you think this is... One other question... Were their ramrods threaded on the end to accept a worm or jag? I’d love to see a pic of ramrod end that goes in the wood... threaded or not... whatever the case may be...next to a tape measure even better! Looking forward to any input/info... Thanks all...

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From all appearances someone did a very nice job of probably salvaging a cut down or damaged musket.It appears there is no band spring on the top band as would have been normal.Also note the swing swivel on the trigger guard with no matching band with a swivel.That swivel would have been on the second band on a normal musket.Have you ever had the bands off to see if the wood is spiced under the lower band?Hard to tell from the pictures,how well does the wood match in the forearm compared to the rest of the stock?

Here's a current repro ramrod although the threaded end is of the wrong thread for original accoutrements-
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx/527/1/ramrod-us-1816-dp

It could be shortened and rethreaded to fit your musket.
 
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Hi 2POP. Welcome to the Forum. This is a really fun and educational Web Site.
Your 1816 appears to be in really good condition. As Jim said, you can get a replacement ramrod and shorten it. Or, I know where there is an original 1816 ramrod for sale - that has already been shortened to 38" that you could cut down again. PM me if interested. Again welcome. Rick.
 
Interesting cut down....I am doubtfull it is millatry as has been mentioned lack of retaining spring on front band, no sling swivel and also the fact that no stud has been added for use of a socket bayonet puts military use in doubt..... while the lockplate shows light pitting I find it odd that the inside of the cock is clean and bright.... no pitting.... also the front band has a "new" look to it..... more photos are needed could you do a better close up of the front band and dismount the lock and show the breech area of the barrel and the other side of the lock? I am wondering if it was converted back to flint from a percussion conversion..... stranger things have happened.....
 
Thanks guys... I'll pop it apart.. make some photos today ..and answer in detail as best as I can...ASAP
 
It looks similar to the Confederate Macon conversion done to
percussion 1842 muskets. Many of the conversions dispensed with the front band spring after being shortened and used a wood screw to secure the band through the spring pin hole. Does yours have that? I can't see the touch hole area of the breech in your photos for signs of reconversion to flint, but the top view of the breech doesn't seem to show a weld where the nipple would be on a "Belgian" percussion conversion which was the most common on 1816s. Having said that, the barrel has obviously been cleaned up and a top shelf weld job could go undetected. I think it's a nicely done reconversion to flint, done in the Macon manner. I have a full length 1816 that I reconverted using a new custom Whitacre barrel that's rifled in the same fashion as a rifled 1842.

Duane
 
Interesting comments ... Thanks!... I popped her apart & made pics as per requests as best I can...Eagerly awaiting more comments..

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The stock has been cut back,you can see the remains of the inetting for the band spring for the middle band.It has been heavily cleaned at some point.The appearance of the wood under the top band would lead me to believe the cut down was not contemporary to the usage of the piece but at a later date,ie 20th century.It's still a nice looking musket.Inletting and putting a band spring on the top band would improve the overall looks of the piece,just a personal observation.
 
The lock appears to be completely original. Also, the breach of the barrel shows no sign of having ever been percussioned. You will notice that the same number “3” is stamped on the inside of the original brass pan and the bottom of the barrel as well as the bottom of the breach plug.

A proper band spring for the front band can easily be inlet would make the gun look better. Original M1816 band springs can be found at Lodgewood Manufacturing, Ltd. or S&S.

Since the lock seems to be fully original, this one could be considered a candidate for barrel stretching if you want to go that far; there are a number of barrel makers that would be capable of doing a good job at it. The two vendors mentioned above would be able to help with locating an original or reproduction middle barrel band, swivel and spring if you decide to do it. Dunlap Woodcrafters have partially inlet forearms for the M1816. (Sorry, I'm rattling on.... :) )
 
Scots Jim... Sorry I forgot to reply to your query about signs of splicing... there are no signs of splicing...
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Thanks for the continued intrest and input...
The front band is well fitted needing to be driven off... I agree too that it would look better with a front band spring...The little screw that retains the band is a worry for loss when dismantling the piece..
Duane... I appreciate your comment about the Macon Conversion on the band..
Yep... the gun has undergone some “condition massaging” ...I’m fairly certain the lock would have been massaged too but it is well case hardened and too hard for any kind of easy touch up polishing to remove pitting as was probably done to on the rest of the gun...The top jaw is hard enough to have chipping on its’ front edge...The tumbler and sear have some small chips in them but nothing that affects function...
Va.Manut 06
The number 3 is stamped on just about everything...I was very reassured to see that after I received the gun...Thanks for the heads up on finding parts...and “rattling on” about guns works for me 24/7!

Fellas... I’m thinking I’ll leaver her as is... Or perhaps add the front band spring for looks and ease of dissasembly.. The length is more handy for a shooter...The bore is pretty decent... I may tie it down to a tire and give it some test firing...They sure built them AYCH E double L for stout! .....
All further comments welcome & I'm willing to answer any questions... Much thanks all...
 
Forgot to mention I'm looking to see a pic of an original ramrod end with the threads on it..I've been told the threads are for a worm or jag and not used to retain the rod in the wood..That a taper above the threads is how it was retained so that the soldier didn't have to unthread it to put into use..it would be available instantly...
 
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The lock does appear to be original. Original to the musket? Hard to say. The breech end of the barrel shows evidence of being in a vice at some point. Also curious is the inletting done for the front band which is not the norm on full length muskets.

Duane
 
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