1851 navy hunting

[Eterry]

Round here, Whitetails are not that big and they ARE classified as light, thin skinned medium game. They are not that hard to kill if you do your part. I've been taking them for table fare all of my life. For some reason people think you need a dang howitzer to take down a little ole white tail deer. Yes in the grand scheme of things they are small. Now with all that said. I would keep my shots CLOSE and I would stay away from that shoulder blade. I would put the ball ( if it were me wheel weight alloy) just behind the shoulder. That will give you a good vital kill shot. You should also look into a Conical bullet and try a few to see how they shoot. They will give you a bit more energy on the target. Go for it. Give one a dirt nap, then come straight back here and tell us about it. Good Hunting

I agree they aren't hard to kill. But they are easy to lose if you don't hit them right, or follow up too soon.
My father killed dozens with a 22wmr, by his count only lost one. This was subsistence hunting, nothing else. The NM Record Mulie was taken with a 32-20 carbine, but placement is EVERYTHING.

My point was, and is, you can't turn a 44 cap n ball into a 44 magnum, period.

I've never known anyone, including myself, who was able to seat a wheel weight ball in a CNB revolver, unless maybe it was way undersized. Same thing for conicals and minie balls in my muskets.
Now in my rifles I use a hardened prb, but it is undersized.

Having lost one deer in 45 years still haunts me. I wish no one go thru that if possible.

 

[Eterry]

Looking at the load recommendations I noticed you can’t pack as much powder behind the conicals. Had me wondering… with the lower powder charge are you really gaining the energy you hope to gain shooting conicals?

According to Lyman, using a Pressure barrel, NO.
Their data shows a 155gr conical, same weight as a 38 spl, with a max charge of 28grs fffg for 861fps and 255 ft/lbs.
That produced 8820 LUP of pressure, close to their recommended maximum.

Sure you can cram whatever you want in the cylinder, under as much powder as it'll hold But that's not what the test results say you should do.
Again, you can't make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Eterry]

Despite the figures a soft lead ball at them velocities won't flatten out and thus go deep enough if no shoulders are involved.

Britt, they definitely penetrate. But they don't upset much at all. My experience was very similar to using 45acp FMJ. Not what you want on something that can run 40 mph for 30 seconds or more.

 

[Billy Boy]

Ok so I am interested but n hunting with a 1851 navy replica .44 cal revolver. I’ve read so many statements about how they never killed a thing and it was always the infection that did the job. Plenty of folks talking about how ineffective they are.


I’ve read they don’t hold a large enough powder charge to ethically take game as large as a deer. But in my research I did find a thread on another forum where a gentleman had successfully taken a white-tailed buck with an old army but with a 30 grain load which the navy will hold.

Anyone hunted game with a load that light around here? I archery hunt so I understand the concept of patiently waiting for the right shot, and would only take shots at distances I could be deadly accurate at. Probably no more than 25 yards.


What are your thoughts? Experiences?

Use a sharp stick. Deer can also be killed with them and they are lighter and cheaper..

 

[snakebit]

Is it a legal weapon for your state?

 

[Britsmoothy]

Britt, they definitely penetrate. But they don't upset much at all. My experience was very similar to using 45acp FMJ. Not what you want on something that can run 40 mph for 30 seconds or more.

Aye, I never mentioned how slow it may work. But work it will. It may also be instant.
I'd like a good dog handy.

 

[Eterry]

Aye, I never mentioned how slow it may work. But work it will. It may also be instant.
I'd like a good dog handy.

Dad had a Blue Healer who'd come running at the shot, and find the deer faster than you could. You couldn't leave her with the deer, or she'd take payment for finding it from the lips, nose, eyelids, etc. of the deer.

 

[Tanglefoot]

Some years ago .... I think it was 1982 .... We did a series of tests to see which of the replica revolvers that were available were best and as a side issue, how did they compare with modern handguns and their loads. Our results were published in a monthly called The Trade Blanket. We started with the 1860 Army Colt .44 and it's copies from Dixie Gun Works, Lyman, Western Arms, Navy Arms, and of course the 2nd Generation Colt. We compared the esthetics, the finish, the dimensions, the accuracy, etc., and we tested them all with recommended round ball loads for impact on target --- basically, how hard did they hit? For this testing we used a ballistic pendulum. We recorded each bullet strike, fired identical shot groups with each handgun, and calculated the mean value of each group. We ran identical impact tests on modern revolvers using standard commercially available loads in each case. The exception was a then-standard military handgun with GI loads. I hope that's not violating any forum rules to say that. Then we charted the results. If there's anybody reading this who can't figure out what we tested and wants more info, PM me and I'll be glad to provide details.
The bottom line is, The .44 caliber Colt 1860 Army and it's clones hit with an impact that measured roughly half way between the weakest modern caliber/load (rimfire) and the lowest power center fire round, which is now considered by the experts I've consulted to be borderline minimum for self defense --- nowhere near the striking power of most modern centerfire handgun calibers, and only a fraction of the force delivered by that one military issue handgun with standard loads.
My recommendation would be not to hunt anything larger, or fiercer than a bunny rabbit with a cap-n-ball revolver and most certainly to never get in a situation where you might be facing dangerous game with one. And let me emphassize that the testing I mentioned was with an 1860 Colt Army .44 caliber. To the best of my knowledge, the 1851 Navy was only available in .36 caliber originally. A .44 caliber 1851 Navy is a modern fantasy gun to me, but there are many folks out there who are more knowledgeable about these things than I am. Some of them are members of this forum.

 

[PowderCharge]

I don't think either of those two comparisons are applicable to the question.

Ethically speaking, Failure to practice isn't directly applicable to adequate killing capacity of the weapon.

Yeah I see your point. And my original question is about the efficacy of the weapon. I suppose I got off course reading the comment about “might as well use a .31 pocket pistol.” My real question to his response was is the .44 cal navy really so under powered it should be in the class of a pocket pistol? Reading other responses I already got that answer. Certainly not.

 

[PowderCharge]

I don't see why a 44 call '51 Navy cylinder would have any less Volume than a 44 cal 1860 or 1858. I could be wrong tho. But I don't think you should have any trouble getting 30 grains 3F under a Conical. I can get 30 grains under a 240 grain Conical in my Uberit NMA.

I was kind of wondering the same thing. In my reading the closest thing I could figure as to why it can’t hold the same charge is maybe the build design of the navy. Something about the frame not being as strong.

 

[PowderCharge]

A lot of variables here, starting with the target. Big difference between a Northern Minnesota Whitetail at 275# or more and a Louisiana swamp Whitetail at 70# or less, I see you are from Arizona, so your equivalency would be a Coues deer from the SE in the Geronimo Mts. vs a Mule deer buck on the North Rim. For the smaller deer I say no problem, the larger ones would give me pause

Then there are your skills, not only with your accuracy, but your hunting skills in how close you can get.

There are going to be other variables, like terrain and brush, but the first two re definitely at the top of the list.

Can it be done? Yes, and undoubtedly has, many times. Is it ethical? That largely depends on your execution/capabilities. The key here is in getting close, real close, and not in your choice of weapon.

Yeah it’d be coues deer, and I can get pretty dang close to them once in a while. I’ve learned my lessons on trying to punch through brush with arrows and under powered equipment.

 

[PowderCharge]

Dad had a Blue Healer who'd come running at the shot, and find the deer faster than you could. You couldn't leave her with the deer, or she'd take payment for finding it from the lips, nose, eyelids, etc. of the deer.

No dogs on deer hunts in AZ.

 

[PowderCharge]

Is it a legal weapon for your state?

Yes sir

 

[Britsmoothy]

 

[Eterry]

No dogs on deer hunts in AZ.

This was our cow dog. But she liked venison as much as we did... maybe more. We finally had to start tying her up before hunting, or she'd chase the deer. Sadly, she's long gone.

I hope you get plenty of practice, get really familiar with your 44. The Conical or RB need to be dead soft or you'll have serious problems loading her.
If you've bowhunted you know where to put the round, also about not following up too soon. Avoid large bones, and post some pics after getting a Cous'. My BIL lives in Glendale, he used to hunt the Superstition Mountains.
It can be tough getting drawn I hear.
Best of luck. Be safe.

 

[Eterry]

I'm not a fan of having a fully cocked pistol on my lap, but to each their own.
I seem to recall holding back the trigger while cocking to keep things quiet. That or leaving it at half cock until deer arrive.

 

[smokepolehall]

Like y

Ok so I am interested but n hunting with a 1851 navy replica .44 cal revolver. I’ve read so many statements about how they never killed a thing and it was always the infection that did the job. Plenty of folks talking about how ineffective they are.


I’ve read they don’t hold a large enough powder charge to ethically take game as large as a deer. But in my research I did find a thread on another forum where a gentleman had successfully taken a white-tailed buck with an old army but with a 30 grain load which the navy will hold.

Anyone hunted game with a load that light around here? I archery hunt so I understand the concept of patiently waiting for the right shot, and would only take shots at distances I could be deadly accurate at. Probably no more than 25 yards.


What are your thoughts? Experiences?

Like you i am going to use my 1860 New Army .44 with a .454 ball & 30 gr of T7-3F. I hit playing card at 35 yards consistantly & 4"x4" at 40 yards. That's the max i think i can make a clean kill

 

[Britsmoothy]

I'm not a fan of having a fully cocked pistol on my lap, but to each their own.
I seem to recall holding back the trigger while cocking to keep things quiet. That or leaving it at half cock until deer arrive.

I didn't put the video on to advocate that.

 

[smokepolehall]

You can cock the hammer back while a deer is walking up to you. Specially in the crunchy leaves & such. They don't even hear it.

 

[Eterry]

I didn't put the video on to advocate that.

Britt, I was sure you didn't do that. I saw him do that and kinda shook my head. Every muzzleloader I own has a hammer or cock that needs to be eared back before shooting. I've NEVER kept a muzzleloader at full cock until I see game.
I'm sure most, if not all, on this site do likewise.