1858 Remington - 1st C & B

[tnlonghunter]

I will be getting an 1858 Rem New Army in .44 for Christmas this year (I love my wife, who is giving it to me!). For information's sake, it's the one Cabela's is selling - $189, plus a $20-off coupon makes it a pretty good deal. I believe it is a Pietta brand. It has lots of good reviews, so I feel pretty comfortable about it.

I've never actually shot one of these before, but I'm pretty excited about it. After doing some research, I've seen a couple of different ways to load and clean these things, and I would like some input from the experts.

I know that each gun prefers a different load, and I'll just have to try different ones to figure it out. But what is a good starting place?

Anyone got a favorite brand of cap?

Some people I've read/talked to use a lubricated wad between the powder and ball. Some don't. Some put grease over the front of the cylinder after the ball has been loaded. Some don't. What do you recommend and why? I know that keeping fouling soft and to a minimum is the plan.

As far as cleaning goes, how far does it need to be disassembled each time?

How long does a set of nipples usually last?

Thanks, and if I've missed some other important question, give me the answer anyway!

 

[wcassidy]

Well I've got one myself and I load it with FFFg (i'm not sure how many grains it comes out of a .36 charging flask)a .451 ball and grease it with something (patch grease T/C lube). It's a fun gun and i've never taken it to paper but it hits bottles OK. Anyhow the grease over the ball is for safety purposes, it keeps sparks from firing one chamber from sneaking past a ball in the other and setting it off.

 

[ian45662]

My load is 21 grains or 3F and I use one of those little lee powder measure scopes and scope out some cream of wheat to fill the air space. .457 round ball and some Crisco on top of the ball. The Crisco will lube the ball as it goes down the barrel so that it will not leave lead deposits. That load in my gun is a very accurate load. Mine is a uberti though but I would say that load or one similar would work pretty good in yours.

 

[redwing]

I use a lubed felt wad cut from old cowboy hats and Bore Butter Lube. The wads are placed in the Micorwave with a little bore butter and zapped. You can get a wad cutter from TOW. I load 22 to 24 grs. of 3F. I do not use breakfast food for filler or put biscuit lard {Crisco} in the chamber mouth. This makes a mess anyway. The cross fire is most likely caused by caps that are not tight fitting. This can cause a flintlock firing effect in the chambers. :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

Congratulations on your new gun.

You will see that the recommended ball size varies depending on who you ask. A .453 diameter ball is a good compromise.

The powder load can range from under 20 grains up to the maximum that the chambers can hold.

How much is that? It depends on who made the gun but the important thing to remember is the uncompacted powder load should come up to about 5/16 to 3/8 of an inch from the chamber mouth.

That will cause the ball to compress the powder load a bit but will still allow the ball to be seated below the face of the cylinder.

If you are using a smaller powder load, pour some cornmeal, Cream of Wheat or other dry powder over the top of the powder load to fill the chamber to the same depth as I mentioned above. If other words, the powder must be next to the nipple and the filler just fills the empty space to the same level as if the chamber was being fully loaded.

I have shot my pistols using a lubricated felt wad and without using a felt wad.
The only real difference seems to be that the felt wad between the powder and the ball will lubricate the bore as it passes thru and the wad does offer some protection against a chain fire.
If you use a felt wad, the top of the wad should be about 5/16 to 3/8 below the chamber mouth before inserting the ball.
That reduces the powder load a bit but make no mistake. The powder load will be more than sufficient to kill any bottle, target or man it hits.

The caps should fit the nipples fairly tightly. If they don't you can squeeze them a bit out of round to make them stay on the nipple.
It is absolutly necessary that any loaded chamber has its cap in place before any other chamber is fired.
Sometimes, the caps will fall off of a nipple when another chamber is fired and if it does and it isn't noticed before firing another chamber a chain fire is very likely to happen.

As few if any of us are using our revolvers for self defense in a life/death situation, and it only takes a second to look at the caps on the rear of the cylinder be sure to check that all of the caps on the unfired chambers are still in place before firing the next shot.

As for cleaning your gun you should remove the cylinder and the nipples from it.
Thoroughly clean the cylinder, the frame, the barrel, the hammer face and sides and the notch in the frame that the hammer rests in.

You do not have to clean the internal areas of the gun every time you shoot it.
It is a good idea however to fully disassemble the gun and clean the bits of powder and fouling out of the frame at least once a year.

Lubricate all metal surfaces with something like Birchwood Casey Barricade to prevent rust.

Have fun with your gun when you get it.

Lubricating the mouth of the chamber over the top of the ball does about the same thing as far as sealing the chamber off from the front flash of flame and although much of the lube will be blown out of the chambers once the gun is fired a small amount of it does remain on the ball to provide some lubrication in the bore.

 

[JJB22]

Man what can I add, Great info and explanation as always.

I use .454 round balls and 22 grains of 3f for my plinking loads and about 35 grains for my max loads. I do the lubed overpowder wads so 35 grains is about max out of my Pietta. I have the same nipples in my cylinder after 800-900 shots. I would warn of shooting max loads exclusivley as I have shot my revolver pretty loose. I have had to replace the cylinder rod and I have developed some endplay in the cylinder-to-forcing-cone measurement. I use number 11 caps, not picky to a brand-- they all seam to work for me. I chuck the nipples in my drill and run a file on them if they get mushroomed from a dry fire. I take the grips, trigger guard, cylinder, nipples, loading ram, and cylinder rod out/off when I clean. I place everything(except grip/stocks) in one of my wife's cake pans--fits just right and soak in warm water and soap. Scrub everything, blow with compressed air, alcohol, blow again, lube, and reassemble. Takes a wile but worth the time too to make sure the rust stay's in my 78 Chevy---not my guns. :grin:

I have a ball with my revolvers, I have two others and I shoot them almost every weekend. Oh yea, I grease the other revolvers come to think about it-- both are 31 cal so I don't need much lube with them-- anyway congrats and happy shooting.

 

[redwing]

Now thats the way to do it. Shoot the thing and keep it simple. :thumbsup:

 

[rafterob]

I have a Pietta, I shoot 18 grains fffg. Sometimes use corn meal filler and sometimes not depending on the mood. It shoots better with the filler. .454 balls, CCI#10 caps. They are the only caps I have seen in my area so that's what I shoot. They fit well on my pistol and don't come off. The Remmingtons are a little susceptible to exploded caps jamming against the frame, no problem as long as you aren't rapid firing "gunslinger" style. I use Crisco over the balls, and it is also a good idea to coat the cylinder pin before shooting. That helps to keep fouling out and prevent the cylinder from binding up. The only drawback of crisco is that on hot days after 2-3 shots the rest of the lube melts out of the cylinder before those chambers are fired. I don't like the wads just because of the litter it creates. As zonie said, you can load the chambers all the way up with powder for that real hand cannon feel! Get screwdrivers that fit the screws perfectly to avoid messing up the screw heads when you disassemble. I totally break mine down about every 3rd shoot, otherwise I remove the grips and take the cylinder out and clean as others have directed. Enjoy!

 

[spaethjm]

I have two remmy 58's one 36 and one 44 I use 375 in the 36 and 452 in the 44 I put a felt wad in before the bullet. I like 30 gr of 3f Goex pinnacle. I can load more cylinder"s without fouling. I also have the Pietta.

 

[redwing]

Well I have to say, I have never heard of a C&B Six-Gun causing litter. Must be some of the new age green movement thinking. I don't think biscuit lard and and grits are needed in a '58 Remey.
Back in the day they did have paper wadding using the cartridges in their guns. The Ole '58 is light and loads above 26 grs. start to hammer the gun. I prefer the Rogers&Spencer its about the same gun but will take up to 40Grs. of 3F. :thumbsup:

 

[Stewswanson]

I use 27 gr. of Pyrodex 3f with a wonder wad and a .451 ball For cleaning I remove the cylinder and nipples.
Stew

 

[Stophel]

Haven't shot mine in a while.

When I got it, I first started using the little lubed wads behind the balls. It helps keep the gun clean, but man, they are a pain to get into the chambers and keep straight. After a while, I decided to just forget the wads and load the balls. Oh, the gun got dirtier, but much easier to load, and also it was not hard to notice that my groups got MUCH smaller! My gun shoots vastly better without wads than with them.

Long time ago, I tried Crisco over top of the balls. Man, what a freakin' mess.

If your balls fit (meaning that you shave off a little ring when loading) the gun WILL NOT "chain fire". No way, no how. At least not from a spark at the front end...the back end is a different story. Wads or grease are not necessary for this purpose. The wads do sure help keep the gun clean, though.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

a 7.62X39 case (ak or sks case) makes a good warm load powder measure about 31grs of 3F. this is max load when shooting slugs with a felt overpowder.
a .357 mag case is about 26gr still 'snappy'
a .38spcl case about 22 grs (good target load)
I use windsheild washer fluid in a spray jug to wash my revolvers with when camping, pull the cylinder and spray all well then use a small paint brush to scrub then repeat the spray and wipe well with a cloth damp with hot water, when dry - lube, reassamble and reload.
myself I've had good luck with a felt under Lee mold slugs at .454. a dollop of 50/50 vaseline and beeswax over the slug or ball provides some good lube and wet protection.
make sure you use snug fitting caps #10's are what you very likely need for your Remmy.
good luck and welcome to a fascinating part of the BP shooting sport. :hatsoff:

 

[tnlonghunter]

Thanks for all the info y'all. I'm really looking forward to shooting it. A couple other questions that came to me.

1) I've read where some people felt the need to lap their barrels and cylinder chambers before shooting. Did any of y'all do this and was it necessary? What did you use?

2) What range for the zero would you recommend? I'll be mostly using it to plink at soda-can sized targets (woods walks where allowed). I'll certainly still work up the most accurate load I can find, but I don't know what kind of ranges I'll shoot.

Along those lines, what kinds of trajectory are you getting from your loads?

Thanks again!

 

[Zonie]

I don't recommend lapping your chambers for several reasons.
First, the slight roughness in them actually helps hold the ball in place after it is rammed into the chambers. If the surface were glass smooth the recoil from firing a shot would cause the other loaded balls to jump forward, locking up the cylinder.

Second, unless done with great care it is very easy to bell mouth the front of the chamber making is slightly larger than the rest of the chamber.
While this may seem like a good idea at first because the ball will get tighter and tighter as it is forced into the chamber one must remember that lead has no real spring back so after it is swaged smaller the slightest movement forward will move it into a larger area where, as mentioned above the recoil from a fired shot will cause the ball to jump forward.

As for lapping the bore, most of the guns made today have a pretty good finish in them already.
They are also usually slightly oversize so, any material removal will make the fit of the fired ball looser than it already is.

Speaking of oversize barrels, almost all of the modern reproduction guns have chambers that are slightly smaller than the groove size in the barrel. This causes inaccurcy.

While saying folks should not lap their chambers in one breath I will say that having the chamber mouths diameter enlarged slightly will usually improve accuracy. I'm talking about only a few thousandths of an inch.

This should only be done by a gunsmith who knows what he's doing and has the proper reamer on hand for the size needed.

As for range to zero?
Most of these cap and ball guns are built like the originals and they are zeroed at about 75 yards.
This makes them shoot very high at close targets. I'm talking like 5-6 inches at 20 yards high.

To fix this one could install a taller front sight but for many of these guns that would look very strange.
If the gun was hitting 6 inches high at 20 yards you would have to increase the height of the front sight almost 3/32 of an inch (actually .083 if the sights were 10 inches apart).

You won't know where your gun is hitting until you shoot it but I suggest taking a large piece of paper with you to see how far off it really is.
I do have a couple of Colt style guns that shoot to the point of aim but that's 2 out of 18.

After you find where the gun is shooting use some "Kentucky windage" with your point of aim and you should do fine.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Thanks for all the info y'all. I'm really looking forward to shooting it. A couple other questions that came to me.

1) I've read where some people felt the need to lap their barrels and cylinder chambers before shooting. Did any of y'all do this and was it necessary? What did you use?

2) What range for the zero would you recommend? I'll be mostly using it to plink at soda-can sized targets (woods walks where allowed). I'll certainly still work up the most accurate load I can find, but I don't know what kind of ranges I'll shoot.

Along those lines, what kinds of trajectory are you getting from your loads?

Thanks again!

Let me first state a hearty congratulations on your wife's gift! You're a lucky guy!

DO NOT lap the thing! For every reason Zonie said!

As far as playing with the sights--I don't bother, I just find-out where it hits and then adjust my point of aim to change point of impact. I'm one of those weird "let-me-shoot-it -out-of-the-box" guys that enjoys overcoming the obstacles inherent with the manufacturing and design of cap & balls revolvers.

Let me give you an idea of what can be accomplished in a woodswalk-style shoot. Once you learn how to estimate the range to the target, you can adjust P.O.A. to hit the target/gong. At a rifle match at a club that I belong to that never shot pistols, I brought my Walker revolver and loading stand. After shooting the course with my rifle, I tried the revolver--at distances from 20-135 yards! I missed the close-in 20 yard gong because I didn't aim low enough under the gong to hit it (gun is sighted in for approx 75 yards). I hit all of the other gongs, all the way out to 135 yards, with the rest of a cylinder's worth of rounds :shocked2: . Knowing where the ball is going to hit due to the range changing is the key to shooting at various ranges. Lots of practice will be required, and I'd try 25-30 grains of 3Fg Goex, a wonder-wad and a .454 ball as a start.

Don't flinch and don't drop the front of the gun as the hammer falls. Hold onto the thing with two hands until you KNOW how to "call your shots". Only then should you attempt a strong-hand only hold and try to shoot for a high score or long distance.

Enjoy that thing!

Dave

P.S.: Do everything the SAME: pressure on the seating the ball on the charge, amount of powder, size of ball, how you aim, holding the gun, etc., etc..

 

[tnlonghunter]

Thanks y'all. I/we brought it home today, but since it's a Christmas gift, I don't get it until Christmas! I'll post some pics and stuff after Christmas. I'll have plenty of time to read up and collect the necessary accessories to shoot with anyway.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

:thumbsup: Give her a big squeeze from me, and Merry Christmas a couple of weeks early! Now you have to have her get the rest of the stuff that you need to work the thing and put all of it in your stocking!

Dave

 

[tnlonghunter]

Okay, new question. After thinking about whether to get .451 or .454 or whatever other size roundballs and listening to people's responses something occurred to me.

When I push the rb's into the cylinder chambers with the loading press, a small sliver of lead is supposed to be shaved off the ball, correct? If this is the case, won't every ball be reduced to the size of the chamber, regardless of what size it started from? If this is correct, why would I start with .454, which would be harder to load because it would need to trim a little more off?

Have I missed something, because it seems as though there shouldn't be an difference in rb size after loading.

 

[rafterob]

You want to shave off a complete ring around the ball to assure a good gas seal in the chamber. The issue is machining tolerances I believe. Most Pietta owner's, including mysef, have found that the .454 ball fits the bill for this requirement.I have not found any difference in the pressure it takes to load a .451, .454 or .457 in my pistol. That soft lead shaves pretty easily. The .451 ball would often just shave a hair off one side, the .454 generally shaves 3/4 to a full ring off and the .457 was overkill. If you don't have a loading stand, take this time before Christmas to build yourself one, so you will be ready to go Christmas morning. I hope you are getting your wife something sweet in return for her generosity :wink: