1860 Army loose barrel/frame fit...

[Burntbrows]

Even with the wedge driven in all the way, there seems to be too big a gap between both the cylinder and forcing cone, and where the frame pins go into the barrel recesses. If the barrel is pushed against the frame, the gaps disappear.

The steel frame Pietta gun has not been shot much more than 300 times, almost always with 30 grain FFF Goex charges under a .454 ball w/bore butter. I think it's always been loose like this.

Is there anyway short of professional gunsmithing to tighten the movement between barrel and frame and minimize the gaps?

I hope these help to illustrate:

 

[philo426]

No the barrel should be flush.My 1860 Army has almost no gap between the cyclinder and the forcing cone and I've been shooting it since I bought it in '88.

 

[No Grease]

If in fact you are able to push it closer together with your hand you should try a different wedge or use small piece of wood and same wedge to force the cylinder and barrel closer together thus ensuring the forcing cone is the correct distance. :thumbsup:

 

[No Grease]

What is the correct spacing for the forcing cone and barrel on this pistol? Might use a feeler gauge to check if it is within tolerances.

 

[rebel727]

I haven't measured the gap in mine but it's not very much and that's with my wedge flush with the frame on the off side.

 

[Mulebrain]

Here we go again! A revolver after 150 years to get it right, and this!

The fit and finish vary on these guns, and they shouldn't!

Quality and control at it's finest.

I know, I know, these guns are reasonably priced, but what price are we paying?

I have one Pietta, and the gun is right on, but the other just is not the same!

Tell me one person, that wants to buy headaches?

Those gaps pictured are just not acceptable!

I know we should settle for less, and hope for the best



:shake:

 

[torn moc]

Is the wedge screw tightened in all the way?
if it is then I would say try another wedge....
the wedge should technically be able to snug the cylinder up so tight that the cylinder wont even turn!

 

[torn moc]

hang on Mule...there has got to be a reasonible solution to this dilemma...other than pro gunsmithing...
all my piettas have been just fine over the last 35 years...I loved them all...

 

[rebel727]

The tightness of the wedge screw has nothing to do with it.It's just there to keep the wedge from coming all the way out. Looks like the slot is too far forward on the cylinder pin.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't have even put shot #1 through the gun...I'd have sent it back to the retailer that sold it to me. A gun with such loose tolerances is considered unsafe in some circles. I also don't see the wedge pin screw that screws into the wedge, holding the thing in place.

My 1860 Army (Uberti) is a good example of what a repro gun should be.

As a last resort, shim the wedge so that the space before the forcing cone is less than what we all see in the photo.

Good luck with that gun, and oh by the way, welcome to the Forum!

What part of "South Jersey" are you in? I'm in central jersey, and shoot BP all over the state. Maybe we could get together for a better "in-focus" look at the gun?

Dave

 

[Burntbrows]

The tightness of the wedge screw has nothing to do with it.It's just there to keep the wedge from coming all the way out. Looks like the slot is too far forward on the cylinder pin.

The wedge screw is tightened all the way. It was tested without the screw in, so the wedge could be tapped in a bit further, but the looseness remained. Your idea that the cylinder pin slot might be misaligned sounds probable -- thanks.

 

[rebel727]

You can tap the wedge in or out with the screw tightened down. All the screw is for is to catch the lip of the spring to keep the wedge from coming all the way out.

 

[Zonie]

Although it doesn't seem fair (and it isn't), the first thing you should try it buying another wedge.

With this design, if the wedge isn't wide enough it won't drive the barrel back to the correct position.

If you look at the pictures, you will see that there in a gap between the barrel and the frame (at the bottom).
This area shouldn't have a gap at all. It should be tight.

If the barrel was tight against the frame there might still be a small gap between the cylinder and the barrel but this isn't all bad.
If fact, it will keep the cylinder from locking up due to fouling.
Yes, there will be a lot of flash coming out of this area when the gun is fired but, as long as the chamber and the barrel are lined up and the cylinder is locked by the cylinder stop when the gun fires, IMO it is safe to shoot.

Until the gap at the bottom between the barrel and the frame is eliminated though, I would not shoot the gun.

I don't know if Tickfood can measure his wedge but as a reference I just measured 4 of my guns wedges. The width is tapered with the small dimension on the right hand end and the large dimension on the left end (screw side of the gun).

These dimensions give the small end, the large end, the length and the thickness in that order.

Uberti 1860 .496, .525, 1.080, .138
Pietta 1851 .478, .523, 1.075, .138
Pietta 1851 .481, .519, 1.076, .138
Pietta 1851 .480, .527, 1.074, .136

If Tickfood doesn't have a micrometer or a vernier caliper a good ruler with 1/32 inch markings could be used. If the width of the narrow end is a little less than 1/2 inch and the large end is 1/32 larger than 1/2 inch then the width isn't the problem so buying a new wedge wouldn't solve the problem. If the large end is 1/2 inch or less, I'm betting that buying a new wedge would fix the gun.

These dimensions also tell me that the Dixie Gunworks Catalog is correct. The same wedge will work in the 1851 and the 1860. Their part number by the way is #PP 1808 and a few years ago they wanted about $7 for one.

Not that they are recommended as being well made but many of the "Colt" style pistols that were made in the Confederate States had much larger cylinder gaps (not frame gaps) than the ones on this gun and they were functional.

 

[Burntbrows]

Thanks for the advice and tech specs, Zonie -- the wide end of the wedge is very close to .5 inch, definitely not 1/32 more than half.

On close inspection, I notice that the edge of the wedge that faces the muzzle end is dented a bit, and the edge that faces the cylinder is bulging a bit. It looks like slight deformation due to recoil. It may be the wedge is hanging up on the bulge. I'll peen it flat and see if that helps before ordering a new wedge.

I'm still worried it's a misaligned cylinder slot, but I'm a lot closer to figuring this out thanks to the wisdom of the group. I'll post the results of my home gunsmithing -- and the professional gunsmithing that will likely follow!

 

[DickS]

Sounds as if the situation could be corrected by adjustment, replacement, or refitting of the wedge. This past year I rescued a basket case of a Belgian made Centennial Arms 1860 that had really serious issues. It was necessary to scratchbuild a new cylinder pin, fit a new wedge, dress off the receiver breech ring, adjust the cylinder barrel gap. Really accurate shooter now.

 

[Leatherbark]

Should be able to tighten her up with a little filing.......Now, I noticed the bottom of the frame (the part with the two little pins) is bottomed out where its supposed to be. Using a larger wedge will just warp things a bit. What is needed is either take some off of the frame at the bottom where the pins are its counterpart at the bottom of the barrel. Ideally this should bottom out at the same time the cylinder pin bottoms out in the barrel and the barrel/cyl gap closes up.........All three of these things have to happen at once. I'll bet that Pietta has some space for the cylinder pin to fit farther into the barrel so hopefully that will be ok. After you relieve the frame or barrel you may have to swage the wedge a little wider to bring things together.................Does any of this make sense?..........Your clyinder pin is not loose in the frame is it?

 

[mykeal]

Now, I noticed the bottom of the frame (the part with the two little pins) is bottomed out where its supposed to be.

Huh? No, it's not. That's his complaint - that joint is loose. And the pictures show a significant gap.

 

[rebel727]

Take the wedge all the way out and look through the hole with the barrel pushed up against the frame. Can you see through the entire wedge hole or is part of it blocked by the cylinder pin? If nothing is blocking your view a new wedge should do it. I went back and reread your original post and I believe what you meant was you could push the barrel flush with the frame with the wedge installed. That would seem to indicate a wedge problem. I just didn't catch it the first time. However if you can't push it against the frame with the wedge installed and part of your view through the wedge hole is blocked then the slot in the cylinder pin is out of whack.

 

[Burntbrows]

Take the wedge all the way out and look through the hole with the barrel pushed up against the frame. Can you see through the entire wedge hole or is part of it blocked by the cylinder pin?

It's a little rough on the muzzle side of the wedge hole in the cylinder pin, but no major blockage. The wedge hole on the left side of the barrel seems battered slightly wider that the hole on the right side.

If nothing is blocking your view a new wedge should do it. I went back and reread your original post and I believe what you meant was you could push the barrel flush with the frame with the wedge installed.

I can.

That would seem to indicate a wedge problem. I just didn't catch it the first time. However if you can't push it against the frame with the wedge installed and part of your view through the wedge hole is blocked then the slot in the cylinder pin is out of whack.

Well, I just tried inserting the wedge through the right side, and it all snugs up tight. Does that sound like a fix, or have I created another problem?

Also, the fact that so many dudes are so concerned about the proper function of a reproduction c&b revolver they will likely never handle or shoot is fairly well heartwarming. Thanks for all the help; continued suggestions are appreciated.

 

[Leatherbark]

Order you a new[url] wedge.....In[/url] the meantime, lay the old one on an anvil and take a flat punch/ball peen hammer and widen in out some to make it wider and file to fit. Should then tighten things up. Make sure you lay the flat side down before peening...................Bob