paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,538
- Reaction score
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I am not the least pretentious. My problem is that I am a lawyer, who has represented gun clubs for 30 years, and who has been asked, by great, working class guys, to help them reduce the risks of the club from anyone having accidents that would expose the club to a suit. The clubs could not afford to lose their insurance, nor did they have enough money to cover any large judgment over the amount of the insurance coverage. I have a reputation for making Lincoln Scream, and I have done both plaintiff and defense work for years.
That strange combination of circumstances led me to recommend and argue for some very strigent range rules, and rules for public demonstrations that were even tougher. We go beyond NMLRA rules. We have had several members, over the years, who have participated in re-enactment units, and in the Skirmish units. All have been asked their comments on our rules, and all have been listened to with great interest. We also asked them questions that reflected the club's concerns about certain practices and safety. We have modified some of the rules as a result of the discussions and recommendations. Mostly, the men who are experienced admit that what they do is dangerous and could cost their clubs, and them big money.
For instance, the first time we as a club entered a Parade, where we were asked to fire off blanks, we made sure no one was carrying any round ball in the bags, and that people used small charges, with paper wadding. Most of us made up paper tubes to hold pre-measured powder charges, so we could leave the powder horns empty at our side to simply be a prop. Well, besides creating confetti, we also occasionally saw some of that paper burning. The pieces were small, but we were concerned about burning any little kid, so we modified our plans along the route, and shot up into the air, and into the wind, so that by the time the burning pieces came down, behind us, they burned up and could not hurt anyone lining the streets. Shooting into the light breeze also helped accelerate the burning.
But, the next year, we told everyone to take an extra powder horn, as no wadding was to be used! We increased the amount of powder charges to add the compression to simulate firing the guns with a PRB. It worked. We did create a lot of muzzle flash, and a huge cloud of smoke, but those just pleased the crowd more, and chased off the cicadas from the trees.
My club was talked into a " skirmish" by a civil war unit that showed up on a Sunday afternoon, when we were all breaking our camps down. One of the guys who agreed to participate, gave a teenage son a revolver loaded with blanks. The son had no experience in skirmishing, and did not know any of the rules. The civil war unit did not hold an orientation meeting to explain the skirmish rules to our guys. I was too busy helping to take down three lodges, to participate. I told the President of the club that we should not be involved in this activity, and he should advise the rest of the members. He did. But over his advice, a few of the guys began to exchange charges with the skirmishers even while we were breaking camp! One guy burst into a tent where this teenager was doing something, and scared the kid. He whipped around pointed the revolver right at the guy, and fired. Debris got into the man's eye, and he was taken by ambulance to a hospital to have powder burns treated, and bits of powder removed from the cornea of his eye. Luckily nothing really serious happened, and his injuries were small, and healed completely in a couple of days. We had to turn the claim over to the insurance company, which settled the matter by paying the man's ambulance bill.
The club officers and the men who participated in the skirmish against the President's directive met, and had a long discussion. No blame was attached to anyone. But, everyone had a much better understand of why conservative guys like me give out the kind of safety advice we do! We decided right then and there to amend our safety rules to prohibit skirmishing. It would be grounds to kick people out of the club. It was not that skirmishing can't be done safety- I need not tell you what the kid did wrong- but my Black Powder club is trying to simply promote the sport, provide a nice camp and range for its members and shooters, and occasionally do public demonstrations of trick shooting, and knife and hawk throwing to promote our activities. We are not members of a skirmisher's association, and don't attend those events on a regular basis. It would be rediculous to expect our members to know all the safety rules they use when firing at each other with blanks. All of our firing is done with live ammo.
So, if I offend, its because I don't have the luxury of taking chances, or letting clients take chances. They can't afford to do so, if they are honest about the situation, but most people don't think about how they could lose everything they own and a large part of their future income if they hurt someone through carelessness, even on a shooting range.
I have participated in stake shoots, and other volley fire events, under the clock, and I have seen first hand some of the dumb things people do. I don't participate in those events anymore. I do advise shooters in two clubs on safety issues, and how lawsuits happen when people decide to take chances, or violate basic safety rules. The comment I find personally most interesting from many shooters is something along the lines of: " I didn't know violating a safety rule could get you sued!"
I hear the same thing from police officers who didn't realize the every one of those department regulations becomes the basis, as a standard of due care, for a negligence law suit if violating that regulation or rule results in someone being injured. I caution police chiefs, who usually are not lawyers, from writing restrictive " use of force " regulations that are more restrictive than state law provides, because they open their department up to lawsuits based on the higher duty of care reflected by the tougher standards. The Chief always think that by writing tougher rules, they are going to AVOID lawsuits, not encourage them.
This seems to me to be much the same argument, only about gun safety. Being involved in ONE " Cook-off ", is God's way of slapping you up the side of your head, and screaming, " WAKE UP!"
Being involved in TWO Cook-offs, because you didn't change your safety practices after the first one, is the " Galloping Dumbs. " OH, and you can be sure that any plaintiff's lawyer will find out about the prior cook-offs, and make a point of arguing to a jury that the defendant cannot claim ignorance of the risk he was taking when he injuried the plaintiff, because the Defendant had DONE IT BEFORE! That fact tends to make juries angry where they might otherwise be willing to think, Well, it was just an accident ! Their sympathy for the defendant flies out of the courtroom, and instead they start sharpening their pencils and practice making " Os " to add to the jury award!
BTW, in more than 25 years since the " skirmish " incident, my club has never been sued, and we have never had more than a cut finger as the result of someone's negligence.
That strange combination of circumstances led me to recommend and argue for some very strigent range rules, and rules for public demonstrations that were even tougher. We go beyond NMLRA rules. We have had several members, over the years, who have participated in re-enactment units, and in the Skirmish units. All have been asked their comments on our rules, and all have been listened to with great interest. We also asked them questions that reflected the club's concerns about certain practices and safety. We have modified some of the rules as a result of the discussions and recommendations. Mostly, the men who are experienced admit that what they do is dangerous and could cost their clubs, and them big money.
For instance, the first time we as a club entered a Parade, where we were asked to fire off blanks, we made sure no one was carrying any round ball in the bags, and that people used small charges, with paper wadding. Most of us made up paper tubes to hold pre-measured powder charges, so we could leave the powder horns empty at our side to simply be a prop. Well, besides creating confetti, we also occasionally saw some of that paper burning. The pieces were small, but we were concerned about burning any little kid, so we modified our plans along the route, and shot up into the air, and into the wind, so that by the time the burning pieces came down, behind us, they burned up and could not hurt anyone lining the streets. Shooting into the light breeze also helped accelerate the burning.
But, the next year, we told everyone to take an extra powder horn, as no wadding was to be used! We increased the amount of powder charges to add the compression to simulate firing the guns with a PRB. It worked. We did create a lot of muzzle flash, and a huge cloud of smoke, but those just pleased the crowd more, and chased off the cicadas from the trees.
My club was talked into a " skirmish" by a civil war unit that showed up on a Sunday afternoon, when we were all breaking our camps down. One of the guys who agreed to participate, gave a teenage son a revolver loaded with blanks. The son had no experience in skirmishing, and did not know any of the rules. The civil war unit did not hold an orientation meeting to explain the skirmish rules to our guys. I was too busy helping to take down three lodges, to participate. I told the President of the club that we should not be involved in this activity, and he should advise the rest of the members. He did. But over his advice, a few of the guys began to exchange charges with the skirmishers even while we were breaking camp! One guy burst into a tent where this teenager was doing something, and scared the kid. He whipped around pointed the revolver right at the guy, and fired. Debris got into the man's eye, and he was taken by ambulance to a hospital to have powder burns treated, and bits of powder removed from the cornea of his eye. Luckily nothing really serious happened, and his injuries were small, and healed completely in a couple of days. We had to turn the claim over to the insurance company, which settled the matter by paying the man's ambulance bill.
The club officers and the men who participated in the skirmish against the President's directive met, and had a long discussion. No blame was attached to anyone. But, everyone had a much better understand of why conservative guys like me give out the kind of safety advice we do! We decided right then and there to amend our safety rules to prohibit skirmishing. It would be grounds to kick people out of the club. It was not that skirmishing can't be done safety- I need not tell you what the kid did wrong- but my Black Powder club is trying to simply promote the sport, provide a nice camp and range for its members and shooters, and occasionally do public demonstrations of trick shooting, and knife and hawk throwing to promote our activities. We are not members of a skirmisher's association, and don't attend those events on a regular basis. It would be rediculous to expect our members to know all the safety rules they use when firing at each other with blanks. All of our firing is done with live ammo.
So, if I offend, its because I don't have the luxury of taking chances, or letting clients take chances. They can't afford to do so, if they are honest about the situation, but most people don't think about how they could lose everything they own and a large part of their future income if they hurt someone through carelessness, even on a shooting range.
I have participated in stake shoots, and other volley fire events, under the clock, and I have seen first hand some of the dumb things people do. I don't participate in those events anymore. I do advise shooters in two clubs on safety issues, and how lawsuits happen when people decide to take chances, or violate basic safety rules. The comment I find personally most interesting from many shooters is something along the lines of: " I didn't know violating a safety rule could get you sued!"
I hear the same thing from police officers who didn't realize the every one of those department regulations becomes the basis, as a standard of due care, for a negligence law suit if violating that regulation or rule results in someone being injured. I caution police chiefs, who usually are not lawyers, from writing restrictive " use of force " regulations that are more restrictive than state law provides, because they open their department up to lawsuits based on the higher duty of care reflected by the tougher standards. The Chief always think that by writing tougher rules, they are going to AVOID lawsuits, not encourage them.
This seems to me to be much the same argument, only about gun safety. Being involved in ONE " Cook-off ", is God's way of slapping you up the side of your head, and screaming, " WAKE UP!"
Being involved in TWO Cook-offs, because you didn't change your safety practices after the first one, is the " Galloping Dumbs. " OH, and you can be sure that any plaintiff's lawyer will find out about the prior cook-offs, and make a point of arguing to a jury that the defendant cannot claim ignorance of the risk he was taking when he injuried the plaintiff, because the Defendant had DONE IT BEFORE! That fact tends to make juries angry where they might otherwise be willing to think, Well, it was just an accident ! Their sympathy for the defendant flies out of the courtroom, and instead they start sharpening their pencils and practice making " Os " to add to the jury award!
BTW, in more than 25 years since the " skirmish " incident, my club has never been sued, and we have never had more than a cut finger as the result of someone's negligence.
