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18th Century Rifle Accuracy

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tenngun said:
One thing I have not seen addressed here is the effectiveness of a ball at the ranges we have been talking about. No matter how fast you shoot it at the muzzle a prb. Will slow to approx 300-350 fps. At 400 yards to 200 fps range.

I can answer that directly, having spent years loading .430 and .360 balls into modern handgun cartridges. With 0.7 grains of a modern pistol powder kicking it in the butt, the .360 balls chrono right at 350fps. With 1.4 grains of the same powder, the .430 balls are lumbering along right at 300 fps.

We shoot a whole, whole lot of those. At 20' the .360 ball will penetrate 1/2" plywood like it's not even there. The .430 balls will penetrate the same half inch ply, plus a hem/fir 2x4 behind it.

Can't say what little bit slower they were going at 20' rather than the 6' we were chronoing, so call it a push. But with the light behind you, either ball is plainly visible all the way to the target.

Your comments might apply to the same balls launched with a wrist rocket slingshot or a strong arm, but they're kinda fanciful for balls at the remaining velocities you cite. Guy hit with either ball would be wearing the ball in his innards for sure and know darned well he'd been hit. A round to the cranium is gonna have him pushing daisies.

Dunno about .490 or .530 balls cuzz we haven't shot them that way. But I have no doubt they'd be more emphatic, even at lower velocities.
 
Heck, I shoot a dear so far away, I have to rub the ball in salt 1st, then load it...that way the meat don't riun before I walk to the deer.
And, I have to grease the axles on my wagon twice~ if I use my wagon.......it's far~

I'm from Kentucky, and we can all shoot that a way!!
marc n tomtom
 
kaintuck said:
I'm from Kentucky, and we can all shoot that a way!!
kaintuck, I ran across an item about a shrewd fellow who was surely an ancestor of yours, you might enjoy it. Any Germans in your line?

The Pennsylvania Gazette
August 22, 1734
Mr. Franklin, "THE Germans, an industrious and indefatigable People, have been always famous for their Penetration into the more dark and abstruse Parts of Learning, such as border upon Magic not excepted. Of this Nation was the renowned Agrippa, Dr, Faustus, and several others that might be named. Their Skill in the more subtle and mischievous Arts, not being at all doubted of by their Enemies, who by frequent Experience have been made too sensible of it, I admire that any Prince in Europe has the Courage to engage in War with them. I have been formerly told of a certain Virtuoso of that Country, then living, who made himself a Gun (under a particular configuration of the Heavenly Bodies) which had this wonderful property, That if walking in the Woods at any Time without it, he happened to see a Deer, or any other Creature that fled from him, he could go home and fire his Piece up the Chimney, when the Shot, by an inevitable Necessity, would proceed directly to the Game, at whatever Distance, and kill it dead. Such a Philosopher as this (I thought) could never fail of Encouragement and Promotion; but it seems throughout the late long Peace he has been neglected. I, who am in my Heart on the Side of the Emperor, was afraid lest so useful a Marksman might be dead: But, to my great Satisfaction, I perceive by an Article of News in Mr. Bradford's Paper of the first Instant, that he is still living, and prefer'd to the Post of Gunner of the important Fortress of Philipsburgh ; For no one but he could have kill'd the Duke of Berwick , upon the Rhine, and the Duke of Savoy in Italy, Countries so vastly distant, both with the same Shot. I am Yours, &c. T.G.

Spence
 
I'm sure I wouldn't want to catch a 300 fps ball, or a 200 fps ball, but am put in mind of Cole younger, taking about a dozen shots at close range. I don't know what most of the ball were that hit him. I would wonder if a few weren't .36, .32 and .40s at ranges where the ball would be doing the 500 fps range. Of corse he may have caught a few . 44-40 or 45-70s(???) a head shot or heart lung liver could make a kill with 50% penetration.
Lucky beats tough most of the time. And a hit on a man is as good as a kill from a military view. I wouldn't shoot a deer at half that range, but... it don't count unless you kill the deer, and I want it dead asap. Shooting enemies have no such requirement. Still 'spent ball' turns up a time or two in old reports. Balls stuck in bibles, note books, bouncing off swords belt buckles ect show up a time or two also.
 
tenngun said:
I'm sure I wouldn't want to catch a 300 fps ball, or a 200 fps ball, but am put in mind of Cole younger, taking about a dozen shots at close range. I don't know what most of the ball were that hit him.....

In the specific context of this discussion, better tell all that to the bugler's horse:

Artificer said:
...I can positively assert that the distance he fired from, at us, was full four hundred yards....

A rifle-ball passed between him and me...when the bugle horn man, behind us, and directly central, jumped off his horse, and said, "Sir, my horse is shot." The horse staggered, fell down, and died.
 
Spence10 said:
You need to talk this over with the horse.

Spence

That's a good point, especially where the horse seems to have been hit.

I frankly don't know how far away a .50 to .54 caliber PRB would be deadly or at least give a debilitating wound on a man hit in the torso, but it surely is much further than any Rifleman could have hit with it. unless he was lobbing balls into an area and it just happened to hit an unlucky enemy.

Gus
 
That's a truism. A .50 that just makes it to an artery will kill, people have died of ice pick wounds.
Estimating range is a problem. Fifty yards quickly becomes one hundred. One hundred quickly becomes three. Just before the picket-petagrew assault Alexander overshot the union line.
I don't know what's harder to believe, a four hundred yard shot with ball that kills a horse, or repeated consistent overestimation of distance :idunno:
 
tenngun said:
A .50 that just makes it to an artery will kill, people have died of ice pick wounds.

Lots more likely if they penetrate rather than bounce off. A 50 cal fired at normal rifle velocities certainly isn't going to be bouncing off at 400 yards!
 
How about 1.5 miles. Some of you guys may remember this event. Don't know what kind of bullet it was though.

Ohio man cleaning gun killed Amish girl found in buggy

By Kim I. Hartman Dec 21, 2011 in World

Fredericksburg - The shooting of a 15-year-old Amish girl who was driving a horse-drawn buggy appears to be accidental, say police. A man came forward and admitted to shooting his muzzle-loader into the air when cleaning it at the time she was struck by the stray bullet.


The mystery behind the bizarre shooting of Rachel Yoder, who was shot on her way home from a Christmas at an Amish produce farm in Ohio, has been solved, reports Associated Press.

Yoder was found with a single gunshot wound to her head near her home after her brother saw the family horse walking in circles and went to check on her. She had apparently fallen from the buggy and hit her head, causing confusion about her injuries, until an exam at the hospital revealed she had been shot in the head by a single bullet.
Wayne County Sheriff's Capt. Douglas Hunter said, "investigating officers traced a trail of blood along the road for about three-eighths of a mile into Holmes County in an area of farms and rolling hills." No bullet holes were found in the buggy and a thorough search of the area failed to turn up any bullet casings, said police.

Unable to determine the origin of the weapon involved, or any suspects, officers were investigating the case as a homicide. Police had warned residents of the Amish community to report any suspicious activity and to avoid traveling the roads alone.
Holmes County Sheriff Timothy Zimmerly said a man came forward and confessed to shooting his gun while cleaning it. The AP reports, "his neighbors told police they had heard a shot at about the time the girl was wounded."

Zimmerly said the bullet had traveled about 1.5 miles before striking Yoder in the head. The official ruling on her death is pending the ballistic report, but investigators believe "in all probability, it looks like an accidental shooting,"

No charges have been filed against the man.

Yoder lived in Wayne County and attended the Old Order Amish Church, reports Fox News. She is survived by her father, 10 brothers and sisters, 26 nieces and nephews and two grandparents.

Zimmerly said the Yoder family was relieved to find out their daughter was not a victim of the violence that has plagued Amish communities across the country. "Obviously, that makes them feel a lot better than if someone might have been targeting the Amish or if it was a random shooting murder," he said.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
many people today have never shot at 200 yards, let alone 400 yards.

Plus, I contend most people today, or then, cannot judge 200 yards. I'm sure a lot of 75 or 100 yard shots get bragged about as 200 or 400 yards.

I’m sure you are correct about many, if not most people then (and especially now); but I believe Riflemen in the period would have at least known how far was too far to shoot and accurately hit something, as that would have been a survival skill. However, this brings up another important thing to consider and that is how would they have known when the shot was too far?

I think we need to begin by going back to what we can document about their shooting ability.

We know that they could have and most likely set their sights up so they could shoot between 25 and 150 yards so the rise or fall of the bullet did not go outside a deer’s vital area. That way they would not have to worry about figuring elevation before they shot, though they would have had to factor in cross winds. This is supported by documentation of them shooting at 150 yards to pick the most able men for the Rifle Companies and at the Dog and Pony Show exhibitions they put on during their travel up to Boston. Also, figuring in the common bullet drop between 150 and 200 yards, it would not have been difficult to aim at the top of the enemy soldiers’ hats and the ball would hit them in the torso. OK, so knowing this information, we know they would have had to have been pretty expert at telling when a deer was within 150 yards, so that begs the question on how did they know that?

We have already discussed the difficulty of estimating range by whatever length/distance they were familiar with on the ground between them and the deer, so was there another way and preferably a simple way? For some reason, I remembered a way we were taught to estimate the height of a tree when I had just became a Boy Scout in the early 60’s and it was VERY old when it was taught to me and probably someone who cut trees long ago came up with it. You have a person whose height is known stand in front of the tree. You extend your arm and put a thumb or forefinger in the air next to the person standing in front of the tree. You use a finger from your other hand to mark that person’s height on your thumb or finger. Then you use that and go up the tree and note how many times the person’s height goes up the tree. You can get a surprisingly accurate estimate of the height of the tree by multiplying the height of the person by the number of times his height goes up the tree. Now, that does not help for estimating distance, but it gave me a further idea.

A very simple way to know if a deer was within range would have been to have already noted how tall deer appeared at a known distance, say 150 yards. Then use something like one’s thumb or perhaps what the deer looked like at that range compared to the height of the front sight on the rifle when aiming. If the deer is taller than an already known prescribed height on the front sight or thumb, then the Riflemen knew he was in range. Now I realize this is purely speculation with no documentation to back it up, but it is simple and effective and something that period Riflemen could have done.

Going back to the Bullet Drop chart Spence so kindly provided, we can see that really fine/exact range estimation was necessary due to bullet drop beyond 200 yards. Between 200 and 300 yards, the bullet drops another 6 feet from 200 yards. Though the bullet’s drop is probably not this uniform, that means it drops 1 ½ Feet per 25 yards and that was critical to being able to hit an enemy soldier’s torso. Between 300 and 400 yards, the bullet drops over 20 feet. Again a rough estimate would be it drops 5 feet for every 25 yards beyond 300 yards and that is almost the height of an enemy soldier every 25 yards. So knowing the estimated distance by 25 yards was very important between 200 and 300 yards and downright critical between 300 and 400 yards.

Was there a quick and simple method to estimate distance by every 25 yards beyond 200 and especially beyond 300 yards, since it was/is so important to actually hit an enemy soldier? I admit I don’t know.

While typing this out, something occurred to me from when I was on active duty about figuring range/distance estimation. Though no one ever taught me this, it came to me from watching shooters walk downrange during “change over,” when they went to the target area to pull targets after they shot and the Marines came out of the target area to the firing line to shoot. When the Marines walked past the yard lines, I took note of how tall they appeared and made notes on it for the different ranges. I don’t remember if I used a 6 inch Scale/Rule or something else held at arm’s length, but I used something. I wrote that information down for future use, but never wound up needing it, so I have forgotten what the measurements were now some 20 years later.

This is something they could also easily have done during the AWI or other periods, was note how tall the enemy looked at different ranges. Yet though it was useful for distances per 100 yards, it was not nearly good enough to estimate ranges by 25 yards beyond 200 yards.

Gus
 
Interesting thinking....

Sees like the height of the front sight would have been the handiest reference point for determining distance of a known subject height at various distances. I.e., perhaps if your front sight was as tall as the man, he was at 200. If it was half the height of the man he was at 100. If your sight was taller than the man he was somewhere out yonder.

If I was fighting, that line of thinking would have me stand a buddy out at 200 yards, then go to filing on the front sight to adjust it to match. THEN make my adjustments to the rear sight for sight-in at whichever closer range.

You could go right back to using your sights as normal at all ranges, but always have that 200 yard reference out there and waiting when you needed to estimate 200 yards.
 
Not making any assertions about accuracy but I do note that period battle biographies are replete with mentions of men being struck by 'spent musket balls', often with but the most minor of injuries.

If someone gets a nasty bruise from a spent ball fired from over 600 yards away does that mean that the a musket user can accurately hit a man at over 600 yards?

Rifleman Plunkett has been justly praised for his double hit at 300 yards in the Peninsula War but even he must have made many a 300 yard shot and missed but we hear nothing of these.

Taking him as a well attested example, with a rifle in the 18th century style, we can say that a good rifle shooter is capable of hitting a chosen target at 300 yards. What we cannot say is that a capable rifle shooter will hit a chosen target at 300 yards.
 
Before this thread, I speculated that filing the sights to zero them at longer than normal hunting distances MIGHT have been a way to increase the effective range of Riflemen. However and as far as I know, there is no documentation to support that.

Gus
 
Raedwald said:
Rifleman Plunkett has been justly praised for his double hit at 300 yards in the Peninsula War but even he must have made many a 300 yard shot and missed but we hear nothing of these.

Add to that the Baker Rifle that Plunkett used had a long range, flip up rear sight; that made such shooting far easier. Such a rear sight was very uncommon on American 18th century Long Rifles.

Gus
 
Artificer said:
Before this thread, I speculated that filing the sights to zero them at longer than normal hunting distances MIGHT have been a way to increase the effective range of Riflemen. However and as far as I know, there is no documentation to support that.

Gus

Following your line of speculation, I offered some of my own. And I'm speculating that it would be possible (and useful) to adjust the length of your front sight (without regard for the rear sight) as a gauge for distance. If it's laid alongside a standing man at 200 yards, then filed to match that, you could have a handy "gauge" for distance. Following that, do all your sight-in filing on the rear sight.

If I get some range time I might do just that with a B-29 target to see how well I can use such a gauge/front sight for estimating range more accurately, then landing shots. Oughta be fun. Replacement sights are cheap. :wink:
 
Many old guns I have seen had very small sights. However even some of taller sights we use today are bigger then a man would be at 200 yards, and fatter. Drawing a line above a target to a tree top, holding on that point that a hair breadth to left or right would equal many feet three or four hundred yards away would be a random shot at best.
In front of tourist or people watching me shoot at a range I have made some outstanding shoots, I can not do it regularity, but I don't let the tourist know.
One takes a shot at a group or Evan one man alone, and that man goes down, well of corse you were among at him.
 
I dunnt know....I couldnt hit a guy at 400 yds with open sights cuz I couldnt see him in the sites anyway. As fer huntin I do own a few cf scopped rifles and have never shot a beast past 150. My longest (and dumbest kill(s) were an elk and a deer both 180 with a .54. I guessed at the elk and aimed a conical (what I thought was) three feet over his back and hit in LOW kill zone. Deer was walking, aimed at neck, hit wayyy back and barely nicked the liver (he went 4.9 miles per GPS). But I'm no boone or crockett though :idunno:
 
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