2 Band Whitworth Rifle

[Star of The West]

Eventually I would like to build a southern sharpshooter's 2 band .451 Whitworth, something that is not currently made by any of the Italian manufacturers.

What are all of the specifications necessary to build this?

• .451 hexagonal barrel (I will have to cut down a modern reproduction barrel, if I can find one; I'll likely contact Bobby Hoyt to see if he'd be interested in doing that)
• I will likely use a Dunlap 2-Band walnut Enfield stock (if it's the correct dimensions and the barrel channel isn't wrong)
• Is there another source for iron furniture besides "the Rifle Shoppe"? (They're always out of stock on the iron parts from their Pattern 1856 Short Rifle)
• Was the iron furniture blued or color case hardened?
• I'll likely have to get a Pedersoli Whitworth Lock, unless it's more cost effective to get a Rifle Shoppe lock, engrave it with Whitworth markings and color case harden it
• Did all southern import Whitworths have checkered stocks? If so, what size checkering did they have? (I'm not interested in the heat pressed checkering on the Italian reproductions)
• Did it use a regular 2 band Enfield ramrod?
• Could I swap out the barrel with my parker-hale 33" barrel if I wanted to shoot .577? (Similar to how a Kerr rifle can swap out barrels between .451 and .577)

I would greatly appreciate any expert opinions on the feasibility of such a project. I know it'll take a long time to acquire all of the necessary parts.

 

[Conquerordie]

I would try over on the Civil War Forum if no one here has that specific info

 

[Star of The West]

I would try over on the Civil War Forum if no one here has that specific info

If I don't find out anything here, I might reach out to the NRA museum, or the Chickamauga National Park Museum. I believe they have Whitworths or volunteer rifles using Whitworth patented rifling.

 

[dd832]

I have photos of 4 Confederate Whitworth rifles, but all 4 have fittings for telescopes, so I'll just post this one:







All the Whitworth's sent to the South were engraved "2nd Quality" on the trigger guard, as this one is marked. I'll look in my copy of C.H. Roads book "The British Soldier's Firearm, 1850-1864"about the barrel bands. I vaguely remember reading that the barrel bands were heated and dunked in oil on the 1853 Enfield rifle, but I'll have to look that up.

I think that The Rifle Shoppe is your only alternative for getting parts for your project. I had a heck of a time just trying to get a catalogue from an English supplier several years ago for parts when the seller stated that he'd already sent it - I finally got it but it was worthless.

Good luck with your project!!
Mike

 

[Star of The West]

I have photos of 4 Confederate Whitworth rifles, but all 4 have fittings for telescopes, so I'll just post this one:
View attachment 349928
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All the Whitworth's sent to the South were engraved "2nd Quality" on the trigger guard, as this one is marked. I'll look in my copy of C.H. Roads book "The British Soldier's Firearm, 1850-1864"about the barrel bands. I vaguely remember reading that the barrel bands were heated and dunked in oil on the 1853 Enfield rifle, but I'll have to look that up.

I think that The Rifle Shoppe is your only alternative for getting parts for your project. I had a heck of a time just trying to get a catalogue from an English supplier several years ago for parts when the seller stated that he'd already sent it - I finally got it but it was worthless.

Good luck with your project!!
Mike

Thank you. I've seen some pictures with checkering and some without, so it appears there was quite a bit of variation.
This one (in the photo below) has a Whitworth barrel, but I'm not sure if that was added later or if it was original.

 

[Star of The West]

Are there any barrel manufacturers besides Pedersoli that are still in business who make .451 Whitworth patent hexagonal barrels?

 

[TFoley]

Why not just buy a Pedersoli 'Whitworth' and cut it down to suit? I would imagine that trying to get a Whitworth lock out of Pedersoli would be like pushing string uphill.

 

[TFoley]

Calling Mr Minshall - do you have this rifle in your register?

 

[Star of The West]

Why not just buy a Pedersoli 'Whitworth' and cut it down to suit? I would imagine that trying to get a Whitworth lock out of Pedersoli would be like pushing string uphill.

I've inquired about obtaining parts from Pedersoli before, and they were willing to sell me an Enfield lock. I want to use steel/iron furniture, so it would be impractical to buy an entire Pedersoli rifle. The difficult part is finding the exact specifications for a 2 band Whitworth stock; the distance between the rear barrel band and the front barrel band; then the distance between the front barrel band and the endcap.

 

[TFoley]

I've inquired about obtaining parts from Pedersoli before, and they were willing to sell me an Enfield lock. I want to use steel/iron furniture, so it would be impractical to buy an entire Pedersoli rifle. The difficult part is finding the exact specifications for a 2 band Whitworth stock; the distance between the rear barrel band and the front barrel band; then the distance between the front barrel band and the endcap.

Surely you can do scaling and measuring - same as I do when building a model of a rail car of any kind but knowing only one dimension?

 

[ResearchPress]

Eventually I would like to build a southern sharpshooter's 2 band .451 Whitworth, something that is not currently made by any of the Italian manufacturers.
What are all of the specifications necessary to build this? ........ ..... ..
I would greatly appreciate any expert opinions on the feasibility of such a project. I know it'll take a long time to acquire all of the necessary parts.

Have a look at E.J. Blackley and Son in the UK - they have some Whitworth parts that may be suitable for your project.

If you don't already have it - get a copy of 'Military Antique Collector Magazine', Jan.-Feb. 2023, Vol. 2, No. 1. This is a special edition on the Confederate Whitworth rifle and full of information and images.

Also, have a look at the Whitworth information on my web site for general history - Hex Bore – The Whitworth Research Project

David

 

[ResearchPress]

This one (in the photo below) has a Whitworth barrel, but I'm not sure if that was added later or if it was original.
View attachment 350090

That appears very short for a Whitworth. I can't see anything on the lock that suggests Whitworth. What information do you have to confirm that is a Whitworth barrel? Thanks.

David

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

I would imagine that trying to get a Whitworth lock out of Pedersoli would be like pushing string uphill.

?

https://shop.davidepedersoli.com/en/locks/2661-whitworth-pedersoli-lock-case-hardened.html

Pricey little thing.

Shipping is about 2 weeks from Pedersoli. I ordered a creedmore sight direct from Italy about 3 weeks ago and it was delivered promptly.

 

[TFoley]

PD.

 

[ResearchPress]

The rollstamp reads 'WHITWORTHS PARENT' and the serial number is B902. Does that help?

Thanks, but I have had B902 documented for a few years.

My comment was addressed regarding the plain short rifle/carbine pictured on cushions and posted by ‘Star of The West’

David

 

[dave_person]

David Minshall,
Can you suggest to those of us in the states, why Blackley is so unreliable filling orders? Don't get me wrong, I've spoken and shared e-mails with Kevin about my orders and personally I like him very much but I've placed 2 orders with him and neither has ever showed up. The last was 2 years ago, the other was a decade ago. Does he have a better track record with customers in the UK? I ask because I am not alone in wondering. By the way, David, I have a Parker Hale Whitworth rifle purchased in the early 1980s with serial number 518. It was selected for me by Bucky Molson who was a member of the US International Muzzleloader Team as was my brother, John Person.

dave

 

[fleener]

Are you looking for a whitworth barrel? There is or was one for sale here in the USA. I saw it a few weeks ago at Fship. I think it was $800. Original.

Fleener

 

[Star of The West]

That appears very short for a Whitworth. I can't see anything on the lock that suggests Whitworth. What information do you have to confirm that is a Whitworth barrel? Thanks.

David

There's a public post on September 6th by someone on Facebook. If you search for "Whitworth Rifle", you'll see it.

 

[Star of The West]

Have a look at E.J. Blackley and Son in the UK - they have some Whitworth parts that may be suitable for your project.

If you don't already have it - get a copy of 'Military Antique Collector Magazine', Jan.-Feb. 2023, Vol. 2, No. 1. This is a special edition on the Confederate Whitworth rifle and full of information and images.

Also, have a look at the Whitworth information on my web site for general history - Hex Bore – The Whitworth Research Project

David

Thank you. I'm probably leaning towards sending off some of my brass 1853 Enfield parts to be replicated at a foundry in iron. I have been unable to find a place that has a reliable reputation for providing the parts I desire.

Before I start making purchases, I want to get all of the details down to make sure I'm building exactly what I want.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

Thank you. I'm probably leaning towards sending off some of my brass 1853 Enfield parts to be replicated at a foundry in iron. I have been unable to find a place that has a reliable reputation for providing the parts I desire.

Before I start making purchases, I want to get all of the details down to make sure I'm building exactly what I want.

Chris Hirsch in Texas does lost wax casting for vintage/obsolete gun parts. https://www.texasguntrade.com/parts.htm

The Rifle Shoppe, have you talked to them? Might be worth a call.