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I'm not insulting everyone Spence, and please don't take my ignoring jabs to be dragged into an argument by trolls over the simplest things in the shooting sports as being fact free. No-one's denying that there is a long-established rule of thumb re: bore and powder grain -- they'd look as foolish as a Brit saying I made up the concept of peak pressure. These folks just continue to repeat what they've gotten away with when asked what's right by new shooters. No, it's NOT "all good."

You're a bright guy, with time. Knock yourself out and you feel free to contradict traditional muzzleloading tenets with all the facts instead...
 
And you have offered no evidence as to why 3f in a bore larger than .45 is wrong, nor documentation or evidence as to why it's unsafe. Your retorts and commentary DO come off as very insulting, arrogant, and condescending.
 
2 f was the go to powder for bigger guns in the old days. I don't see the math to support you position that 3 is a danger. I use 2 a lot and prime from my horn. I doubt that any one would show that one could put do the other except that you can get s few more shots per pound with three.
Nothing is more important then your own experince, but I don't think you can dismiss people who have a different set of experiences as being ignorant. I have done good work with prb. But know guys who hunt with conicals, having found ball to not work for them. Ect ect.
Ml work best in moderate MV and you get that in certain breach pressures. 2 is most hc in a .62, you can get good prefomance with smaller charges of three. More shots per pound... But not many. In the end also I think Val forget could not be called novice or inexperienced. He pushed his gun beyond any place I would go with a load, but demonstrated safety.
 
As they might, Brokennock, understandably to folk who are what I'll term "functionally illiterate" in blackpowder shooting and argue for the sake of it about what they want, and feel, vs. have any knowledge about. Hope and guessing are neither a plan nor knowledge. And frankly I don't care what they do with their own necks...

...but I do care when they drag down the sport to the lowest-common-denominator, maybe even danger-condition, level especially when new shooters inquire. Sadly, with the exception of some of the Moderators, the more informed shooters here don't even seem to care much about that if it means contradicting some belligerent yahoos and sit on their hands.
 
I'd like to see the proof as well. Who made the rules of thumb, and traditional muzzleloading tenets anyway? HMMMMM some country bumpkin black powder expert for sure.

Funny how someone's recommendation, is now a traditional muzzleloading tenet, and now we're digging in our heels fighting about a damned opinion, that neither party can prove. That's only till someone else comes along and proves another direction.
Sounds like a hell of a good time!!
 
I'm always curious how much contrary evidence it takes to make a change in the dogma. After four decades in the hobby, I've concluded there is not that much evidence in the world.

I was taught to use 3F in .50 and smaller, 2F in everything larger 40 years ago, and I abided by that rule for years. Then I made the mistake of wondering where that commandment came from, the reason behind it. As far as I have been able to ascertain, it, like hundreds of other 'rules' about BP shooting, has been passed down without question and against all reasonable evidence since the beginning of time. The reason it is said to be the only safe thing to do is..."just because." It must be right, we've been doing it that way for decades. Well, I decided that for me, that is a bunch of nonsense. A gazilliion shots have been fired contrary to the rule in perfect safety and with excellent results. So I shoot what I want, don't care what the dogma says. I'm experienced enough to do it safely, in spite of the predictions of doom from the naysayers.

Your flat assertion that 3F should never be fired in a 20 gauge is a perfect example of how entrenched "knowledge" is passed along to the newbies even though there is no good reason behind it. Of course, everyone says "listen to your gun, it will tell you what it likes". God help you if it says it likes 3F when the dogma says 2F.

The way all the consecrated tenants of black powder shooting, cleaning, lubricating, ete., etc., etc., are required to be taken on faith, against all reason and evidence, would be a perfect basis for a new religion. Doubters beware.

Spence
 
I have most definitely heard (for many many many years) the "rule" of using 2f for calibers greater than .45. Cannot say as I recall where, maybe a 1970's muzzle loaders bible? Therefore I can support Aldens argument for his own usage. We all can for the immediate foreseeable future at least do what we want. He simply has had it drilled deeper in his head that the "rule" was made for a purpose and he believes he will stick to it. He admirably is warning others of his belief and position.

If me or any of you use 3f in a 10GA and blow a tube and get hurt I will be the first to say "he told us so". I do use 3f more than two though and have had no issues. Now lets get back to those damn evil Bangladshi arms! Much more fun :stir:
 
I'm going to venture out on a limb here and say,
"virtually every rule about gunpowder has changed since it was invented"

The rules about it's formula have changed. The way it's manufactured has changed. And yes, even its uses and granulations have changed over the years...

I we learn nothing from this argument, we should learn that we all need to dig into our history more...because it is a very deep hole.
 
And still, no documentation or evidence offered. Just more name calling, and the routine, "everyone else is a bumpkin moron, except "Alden the Magnificent," the "Wonderful Wizard of Alden." Sometimes lately I wonder who is behind the Wizard's curtain. ????
 
We frequently see posts, such as from Spence, of advertisements for "fine rifle powder," references to excellent rifle powder. Can someone please come up with a reference in which someone, or a group of people could not use there flintlock/s or caplock/s because the powder available was of too fine a granulation. Obviously if the "rule" was true in the time period in question, no one would had dared used "the wrong powder."
 
colorado clyde said:
I'm going to venture out on a limb here and say,
"virtually every rule about gunpowder has changed since it was invented"

The rules about it's formula have changed. The way it's manufactured has changed. And yes, even its uses and granulations have changed over the years...

I we learn nothing from this argument, we should learn that we all need to dig into our history more...because it is a very deep hole.


Not to mention that gun barrel composition has changed, too.

Modern steels can take more pressure than the old iron barrels.
 
i have used 3f goex in everything from .32 to .62 flintlocks and percussion, prime and main, and .45-70. without issue. i was using 2f in a 20ga smoothrifle just to burn it up. i find 3f to be cleaner than 2. now i only buy 3f and keep things simple. experiment and see what works for you and your gun, that will require more trigger time, darn!!!!!! irishtoo
 
colorado clyde said:
I'm going to venture out on a limb here and say,
"virtually every rule about gunpowder has changed since it was invented"

The rules about it's formula have changed. The way it's manufactured has changed. And yes, even its uses and granulations have changed over the years...

I we learn nothing from this argument, we should learn that we all need to dig into our history more...because it is a very deep hole.

I just trying to say I can see Aldens point. I use 3f in most every thing cuz I have 5 lbs and down to 3/4 pound of 2f. However I will "soon" be using dutch system on all rifles and will try both in each and the best group wins.

Also per other quotes I would venture to say back in the day (hey that rhymes! :blah: ) that one would shoot what one could get and be happy happy happy
 
My point was.....what does 1,2,3,or 4f matter...if reenactors are shooting floor sweepings.....

Oh, I'm sure someone will chime in and say that "grades" have to do with consistency and the rate of deflagration in relation to the bore diameter etc., etc..... :snore:
 
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