20 gauge smoothy which powder

[irishtoo]

i rather doubt that the O.D.Gs allowed their wife and kids to starve or stopped defending the homestead from badguys because they lacked 4f for prime or .015 pillow ticking patch mic'd from joannes fabrics. they used what was on hand at the time and made due. i have learned a great deal from this forum and others, but i also learn from trial and error. so far i have all my fingers. i make my guns, cast my balls, and lube my patch. i try to make as much as i can on my own. irishtoo

 

[The O'Dea]

Lads, mind if I stick my wiping rod in this hornets nest? :cursing: I shoot primarily US issue flint muskets, and have since the 60's, that's 1960's. I have always followed my original 1841 Ordnance Manual which states that the granulation for musket powder is, wait for it, 1FG gunpowder. Yes, it burns dirtier,( I get the unmistakable feeling that many of you lads don't like to get you hands dirty :haha but 1FG is a slow burning powder designed to burn the entire length of the musket barrel. and that is what is needed to bet that old punkin ball moving.
I won't wait around for a comment.

-The Irish Mick
Arizona Territory

 

[The O'Dea]

....and one more little thing. Using the correct gun powder is 'Historically Correct'. After all isn't that the reason why we enjoy this hobby?
Again, I won't wait around to receive you small arms fire.

-The Irish Mick
Arizona Territory

 

[AZbpBurner]

Courtesy Translation: Alden recommends only 2f per basics of 3f up to .45 and 2f for larger. Your welcome! :grin:

In the late 60's there was an elderly gent I'd always see at the range who shot flintlocks. All originals & part of a family legacy passed down thru generations, he even had lots of documentation about how to load & fire. From his description, there was a lot of contradictory information about loads & powder granulation (if mentioned at all). He taught me how to load & fire a flintlock, and from the reading I did and info I was able to get from the Golden Age Arms shop downtown where I lived, the wisdom was 3F for smaller bores, and 2F for anything over .50 cal.

When I asked the old gent about proper powder, he replied that they used whatever was at hand. All he had was 3F (some of the powder cans looked ancient), and most of his rifles were .36, .38, .40 and a couple .50 & .54. The .54's were always the easiest to load & most accurate for me, and 3F was perfectly acceptable.

From what he told me, a lot of info is passed down by word of mouth & when written down, as with his documents, there were often contradictions. His take was that you use whatever works with whatever is on hand. Those written 'rules' were what worked for a particular gun owner, and may not agree with what another gun owner wrote down. Back in the day, written instructions were often regarded as gospel, but there was no accounting for discrepancies. Today this would be simply regarded as "Your Mileage May Vary".


After reading of individual members' success with "outside-the-box" loading data, I'm tending to agree with the YMMV assessment. The Powder Granulation Cop's Expert status is reduced to a whiner, annoyed that his status as an "expert" is diminished by alternative and workable loads outside his dictums. The result can be bitterness, sarcasm, and sometimes namecalling, all without supporting explainations, and none of which will restore title or position of esteemed expert.

 

[Alden]

What can I say that I haven't? Half the people are below average, and the average level of the least knowledgeable, and simplest skilled with the worst attitude, stamp their feet to drown out learning something as though it is a personal attack despite that other, just common sense new shooters, are actually asking for it.

"Instru'tions? We don' even rea' no stinkin' instru'tions!?"

Obviously any functionally illiterate blackpowder shooter can prime and load a muzzleloader. It may even be regarded as a fine hundreds-of-years-old tradition by some yahoos. But even then they fail to realize they are without the benefit of an officer, informed neighbors, responsible parents... They have little but mechanical comprehension (which they make much of) and no frame of reference to perceive how shaky a foundation they are actually on. Ignorance is bliss.

There is something known as the Hughes Corollary; its application here says that the knowledge-base of an individual is inverse to the din they make as an anti-learning dissident. Unfortunately, a little knowledge, especially around arms, is a dangerous thing. And to pass along recommendations antithetical to traditional muzzleloading is inappropriate if not irresponsible. The fact that the culpable party hasn't a clue (i.e. ignorance of the law) and will probably never be held accountable for their misguidance is just lucky for them.

Now, if I shoot a squirrel and its bloody picture with my cat in the foreground out the back door will any American think that is special? LOL

We can lead a horse to water butt...

 

[George]

As I said, there is not enough evidence in the world to change the dogma for the true believers.

Spence

 

[Alden]

Spence, no-one, including yourself (especially yourself now that you have injected yourself into the thread and been challenged) have presented anything but hearsay that you haven't had any failures (that you are willing to admit to anymore) vs. any argument in support of the basics established for blackpowder shooting over generations that so many here are woefully, and surprisingly, ignorant of. Let me make that simpler for some others...

Your own personal, if not lucky but limited, experience on one side of a made-up argument ("I does whats I wants when I wants and ain't dead yet") as evidence is unbalanced.

Please put something together on both "sides," the way you and some others choose to glare at it, and get back to us all with something comprehensive next time.

 

[azmntman]

To me its a "rule" as your pour powder enough to cover the ball in your palm and thats the load to shoot. Does it work? YEP! A lil more or a lil less work better? Maybe.

Seriously though we can all shoot whatever powder we wanna when we wanna so we should. Alden may have heard more about this "rule" than us by a guy with 2 fingers who loaded up with 3f in a .75 bess?

Let it be........... :yakyak:

 

[Britsmoothy]

Sure glad I am below average, I would hate to have to get a pole rammed up my donkey! :haha:

 

[Alden]

AZ, is that how you would educate your own children? I know you and that you are saying it kinda tongue in cheek, but some here would take that quite (il)literately!

Why are some so opposed to common-sense learning if not understanding the basics of the hobby you are so understandably involved in? I don't get it. We are lucky so many have gone before us. And shouldn't we all err on the side of caution!?

I appreciate the experimentation, but to be cliche, think inside the box, no need to reinvent the wheel, and those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it (or live in a second class place where even third-rate blackpowder shooting is a novelty act).

 

[AZbpBurner]

I'd educate my kids (so you're hinting that there are some stragglers out there I'm unaware of?) to keep an open mind, to think for themselves, weighing the most common sense alternatives, rather than blindly following the rote dogma of the ages.

Why stick to the "wisdom of the ages" that blindly argue of the flat earth, the sun and all planets revolving around the earth, when it is later discovered that the earth is not the center of the universe, and that you really can sail over the horizon without falling off the edge.

Don't be blinded by 'knowledge' that is intended to be a guideline, by bestowing it near-empirical status.

I fail to understand your contention about folks failing to recognize [your] superior knowledge, when you present a statement without any supporting rationale.

George Washington stated that an American Soldier can't be just given an order, he needs to know why - that's the core of all successful learning. So, if you regard yourself as an educator, then by what I've oft seen of your writings are more that of a pot-stirrer, than cogent enlightenment.

 

[Zonie]

For the Record:

Turner E. Kirkland says, "...Use FFFG powder in pistols...A Kentucky rifle...Use FFFG powder for small bore and FFG for large bores...Shotguns take FFG powder. FFFFG powder is used only for small bore pistols and rifles and for priming guns." (Dixie Gunworks, 1980).

No information given about what a small bore or large bore is.

There! That should settle it. :grin: :wink:

 

[coloradoclyde]

As I said, there is not enough evidence in the world to change the dogma for the true believers.

Spence

Doesn't matter whether it is a robot or a dogmatic believer.......A logic paradox will make both their heads explode.....Because they can't think beyond their programing....

 

[coloradoclyde]

Wonder what he used in his 4 bore when he went elephant hunting ?

 

[George]

There! That should settle it. :grin: :wink:

It does for me. Who would know better about all that stuff than Turner Kirkland? I suspect that's about as good "evidence" as we'll get.

I would like anyone, Alden included, to provide us with the historical background of that rule. If we are going to abide by a rule because it's historical, it seems only fair to ask who figured it out, and when. Is it truly historical, or did it originate in the 20th century?

Is the rule supposed to be related to safety... efficiency... accuracy... what?

Inquiring minds, and all that BS.

Spence

 

[Snow on the Roof]

I feel so left out with my 1f....

Don't be lonely Brown Bear, I have several pounds of 1F which I use in my 20 and 16 gauge smoothies with shot loads. Much tighter patterns :grin:

 

[bigted]

Alden ...

wasn't gonna partake of this till you mentioned "setting on your hands" bit that I take to mean GET WET AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

so here goes with my "getting wet".

in the 60's we all tried to get the folks to tell us what "don't ask ... just do what I tell ya" thing was all about.

now is no different as I see it. I { as well as many others} would really like to see what the {proof} is in these sayings such as the "3Fg in 45 and under and 2Fg in larger". I would gladly submit to the proof if there was any. but without proof I feel as tho I am listening to the same old crap as when as a kid I heard "don't go there ... don't smoke that ... don't take that" and then drink so much alcohol that the stupids fell into place and they [the grown ups] acted as bad or sometimes worse the we did when "smoking, eating and general ingesting evil stuff acted like.

don't try to come across as a "just do it" kinda feller ... offer some solid proof to back up your demonstrative words and seemingly self absorbed tirade.

thankyou brother for your caring as I must try to see in your admonishments concerning others safety ... now just back it all up with facts and proofs to solidify your presentations.

 

[Zonie]

Ah....
The thought plickens, or is that the plot thickens?

On page 82 of The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle , by Ned H. Roberts, Copyright © MCMXL, MCMXLIV, MCMXLVII and MCMLII by NED H. ROBERTS, Printed by BONANZA BOOKS, NEW YORK, the author wrote:

Generally speaking, a very fine grain black powder should not be used in muzzle-loading rifles unless they are of small calibre. Rifles of 38 calibre and larger usually give the best accuracy with F.g. powder, while those of smaller bore do best with F. F. g. However, there are, of course, exceptions to this rule and we occasionally find muzzle-loaders of 40 to 45 caliber that require the F. F. g., powder to make their smallest groups. O late years the Kings Semi-Smokeless powder..."

Of course, he was writing about rifles but if he thought a ".38 cal and larger" should be using Fg, I have little doubt he would have suggested using Fg or larger in a big smoothbore. (Cannon granulation anybody?) :rotf:

:grin: :hmm:

 

[BrownBear]

Dang, I feel like a real historian now. :grin:

 

[Britsmoothy]

As clear as fog then Zonie!
Just opinions based on personal experiences and NOT anything blowing up!

It seems some mis interpret peak pressure for dangerous pressure!