2F vs 3F for shot loads

[BrownBear]

Huh....

My understanding of a square load differs. I'd always heard it referred to as a shot column that's only as long as it is wide, one which according to the British usually results in best patterns per gauge.

My own shooting pretty much bears this out, and it's a big part of the reason my shot loads are so modest compared to so many you read about here.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I had heard the same as Brown Bear. For a shot load the column inside the bore should be one bore diameter tall. Looked at in two-dimensional cross-section they would appear "square"

Playing around with my 16 bore that, coincidentally, comes to one ounce of shot. In a volume measure that takes up as much space as 75 gr of FFg (verified with a scale) And it also uses a one ounce ball. (16 to the pound - hence 16 bore). Actually a little smaller as I paper patch (0.650").

But in practice I use 1-1/4 oz shot but the volume equivalent of a "square load" of powder (75 gr FFg) for my 0.662" bore.

 

[George]

My understanding of a square load differs. I'd always heard it referred to as a shot column that's only as long as it is wide, one which according to the British usually results in best patterns per gauge.

I've read of a similar rule for determining the charge, but I guess you would call it double-square. :wink:

Cleator, 1789:

"Others again lay down as a rule for the charge of powder, a measure of the same diameter as the barrel; and double that diameter in depth: and for the shot, a measure of the like diameter, but one third less in depth than that for the powder."

Spence

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The fact that a 100 grain measure for powder holds about one ounce of lead is purely coincidental.

Spence, that's not the point. The point was that it's volume, not weight. IF the grain was weight, I'm sure you'd agree, then 100 grains of powder would weigh the same as 100 grains of lead, just as an ounce of powder weighs the same as an ounce of lead (though the powder has more volume)..., 100 grains powder measure gives you 438 grains of lead....volume. That was the point.

LD

 

[George]

Spence, that's not the point. The point was that it's volume, not weight. IF the grain was weight, I'm sure you'd agree, then 100 grains of powder would weigh the same as 100 grains of lead,....

100 grains of powder does weigh the same as 100 grains of lead. Even more amazing, 100 grains of feathers weigh the same as 100 grains of lead. :grin:

Grains are a unit of weight. not volume.

Spence

 

[hunts4deer]

Brown Bear, what 12 gauge load do you consider "square" by that British definition? Is that your best pattern load?

Regarding "square loads", maybe we need to have a table of square loads for each gauge. It could assume #6 shot for example, and then give the size of measure that would deliver that amount. (Of course different shot sizes, like powders sizes, result is different weights being deliverd by the volume measures.)

I use antler and bone measures for my guns. I have a good collection, all in 10 grain increments. I prefer ones that are not too narrow down inside, because shot doesn't line up as evenly as in a nice wide space.

I calibrate every new measure I buy using a powder scale and Goex FFG powder. I file or dremel out the inside if necessary until the measure delivers exactly the weight marked. So I know a 70 grain volume measure will deliver 70 grains by weight of goex FFG. For shot, 70 volume is pretty close to one ounce of #6 shot.

Of course if I switch to FG I will get slightly lighter amounts from each measure. And powder brands all have slightly different densities, so Swiss, for example won't be that same weight (which might account, in part, for why is seems to be more potent?)

As a general memory guide, remember that 70 grain measures give about an ounce of shot and every 10 grain step up is about 1/8 ounce more shot. If you use "Nice-Shot" non-toxic shot go up one additional 10 grain volume size to get that same weight of shot. So 80 grain measures give about one ounce of Nice Shot.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

My understanding of a square load doesn't involve any specific weights, just equal volumes of powder and shot. Use whatever measuring device you want, use it for both powder and shot, and the load is "square". It's a made-up term, though, so can mean different things to different people. I prefer the term "grains equivalent", meaning a volume of shot equivalent to the volume of powder.


In LD's post above he said a 100 grain powder measure would drop 1 ounce of shot. That's not exactly correct. A 68 grain powder measure will drop 1 ounce of shot, give or take, depending on the granulation of powder and the size of shot.

Spence

You are correct. I was using 1 ounce as an example, not as a definition, and failed to say so.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Huh....

My understanding of a square load differs. I'd always heard it referred to as a shot column that's only as long as it is wide, one which according to the British usually results in best patterns per gauge.

My own shooting pretty much bears this out, and it's a big part of the reason my shot loads are so modest compared to so many you read about here.

It is certainly used that way among cartridge shooters, often in odes to the 28 gauge. Paul Valandingham, and Richard Beauchamp (who was on the nation BP team for a long time) used "square loads" to mean what I said (or what Spence said more accurately). In both cases I would see it as a fairly informal term, and not a formal definition as "7000 grains to the ounce" would be.

 

[BrownBear]

Brown Bear, what 12 gauge load do you consider "square" by that British definition? Is that your best pattern load?

Not my consideration, rather a long held concept developed with muzzleloaders before modern rounds came on the scene. Here is one quick summary.

And yup. In two different 12 gauge SxS (4 CYL barrels total), 1 1/8 oz shot charges on top of 70 grains of 2f and especially 80 grains of 1f have always given me the best patterns. Funny experience to have denser patterns and more "range" with 1 1/8 oz of shot than with 1 1/2 oz of shot, but the patterns don't lie. Interesting enough, the pattern density remains surprisingly good with even less shot. I shoot 1 oz and even 7/8 oz loads (with corresponding drops in powder charges of course) for closer range small game work, and patterns are nice and consistent, though thinner due to less shot. Great small game loads inside 20 yards, but not so good out around 30.

For the record, in my couple of 20 gauges a 7/8 oz load gives denser patterns at 30 yards than 1 1/4 oz.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

In LD's post above he said a 100 grain powder measure would drop 1 ounce of shot. That's not exactly correct. A 68 grain powder measure will drop 1 ounce of shot, give or take, depending on the granulation of powder and the size of shot

HUH...., :hmm:

Well I suppose my weight scale needs to be calibrated too since I was curious a couple of years ago so put my measure on 100 grains and put in #6 shot then poured that shot onto a weight scale and it was right at 1 ounce,
..., OR....,
maybe since Spence showed that a lot of OTC brass powder measures are improperly calibrated..., maybe when my powder measure reads "100gr", it's actually throwing 68 grains? Maybe it's only throwing 48 grains when I have it set on "70gr" :shocked2:

:idunno:

LD

 

[BrownBear]

Huh....

My 80 grain volumetric powder measure drops 79 grains by weight (avg of 5 measurements) of 2f and 82 grains of 3f (avg of five). Meanwhile it drops versackly 1 1/8 oz of #6 lead shot (avg of 5) and 1.05 oz of #5 shot.

Sumpin's goofy between the two sides of the continent if your 100 grain powder measure is dropping only an ounce of #6 shot.

 

[George]

The adjustable measures can be quite far off. I have a couple of the kind with a swinging funnel, neither has brand or manufacturer indicated.

I weighed each 10-grain increment 3 times and took the average, put a label on. One of them drops reasonably accurate loads of 2F, but is further off for 3F. The other is pretty far off for both. Here are the numbers I found for that one, your mileage may vary.

station----20----30----40----50----60----70----80----90-----100----110----120
For 2F--- 25.3, 35.3, 46.4, 56.8, 68.2, 81.4, 92.6, 101.8, 117.0, 128,6, 143.8
For 3F--- 26.0, 36.5, 48.3, 59.8, 73.0, 85.7, 96,8, 109.2, 121.8, 134.6, 145.0

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Simply glue, solder, epoxy or whatever a shim to the top of the plunger to recalibrate so it measures what it reads....

 

[The Baron]

Oh dear, my head hurts a little reading all of this. :haha:

This thread prompted me to, for the first time ever, do something crazy and actually weight how much BP my adjustable powder measure is throwing (blind faith? Or maybe I did it years ago and forget - very possible.).

Anyway... I have two adjustable brass measures I use regularly. Set at 80gr, the first threw 78.2 of 3F, and the second threw 79.4gr. I'm sure if I tapped them to settle the powder they'd be about bang-on. As a check, I backed the second measure to it's lowest setting of 60gr and it threw 59.8gr.

After reading this thread I am very pleased (and surprised) that both are so close.

Also, I have a small black horn measure on my powder horn strap that I now know throws 80gr perfectly. I'll call myself lucky now and look forward to checking these again with 2F... if I can ever find some around this ML ghost-town of a Country. :shake:

 

[nhmoose]

No one has considered the effect of TAX

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Sumpin's goofy between the two sides of the continent if your 100 grain powder measure is dropping only an ounce of #6 shot.

NAW I think sumpin's goofy with the powder measure.... OR maybe it was my scale....,

LD

 

[rodwha]

For grins I decided to check (just one throw each) what my adjustable rifle powder measure throws with the 3F Olde E. I tapped on it to settle it a bit and ensured there was excess so that when I slid the funnel spout it would level it nicely. Inconsistent to say the least...

20 grns = 24.9 grns
30 grns = 33.4 grns (NMA load)
35 grns = 39.1 grns (ROA load)
70 grns = 71.6 grns (.50 cal load)

 

[coloradoclyde]

Scoop and screed .....no tapping....

 

[duelist1954]

Grains is a measure of weight...period.

All powder measures, whether they are the little brass jobs we use, or an RCBS Uniflow attempt to throw a volume of powder that weights the weight in grains that we are looking to load.

That's why with a Uniflow, or it's equivalent, you adjust the volume chamber, and check the charge it dispenses on a scale, and you keep tweaking the volume until the scale says you have it right...then you start putting powder in shells.

Black powder is no different. That little brass measure we use is supposedly calibrated so the volume we fill will equal the weight in grains marked in the adjusting plunger. Though, brand of powder, grade of powder and even how fast you pour and make that number very inexact. That's why serious black powder cartridge silhouette shooters weigh every charge of black powder that they load.

This is pretty easy to see if you have a Lee Powder dipper set. Look at the calibration chart for any dipper. I'll use the 4.0 cc dipper as an example. The chart says that 4.0 cubic centimeters of volume holds a charge of 2Fg that weights 58.8 grains, and that same dipper holds 63.7 grains of 3Fg...same volume, different weights because 3Fg lays denser than the larger 2Fg grains.

I hope that puts this to rest.

 

[rodwha]

:hatsoff: