.36 Colt Navy that powerful??????

[RB POWELL]

Exactly. That is why it is so hard to compare effectiveness of small calibers of back then with big boomers of today. The fear of being shot was just as great. Even the .44 cal. ball used to kill Abraham Lincoln did not completely penetrate the skull from a range of only inches. But, he died later.

Derringer...

 

[Moasf]

The Army thought it had to be a big chunk of lead like a .58 caliber to be a man stopper. Then it went down to .45. Then 30 caliber, now it's 22. Granted those were rifles, but I think a .36 would "do the job". I wouldn't care to try and stop one .

It will do the job. Shot placement.

 

[Moasf]

Always underestimated by the smokeless only crowd. Little respect for times past, and how things got done.

Smokeless is old school best.

 

[Moasf]

There was a thread not too long ago from a guy that killed a deer with a 36 revolver. Surprised me.

Probably happened in the old days all the time.

 

[Moasf]

At close range I would expect a sudden stop if the shot was placed right. I don’t want to be on either end of that deal…

No volunteers to stand and take one for the group I guess.

 

[B P Arn]

 

[Eutycus]

Meat and bone aren't much of a match for a fast flying lead ball (of any caliber).How's that for obvious?

 

[smoothshooter]

I thought Colen Younger was shot in the cartridge era?

He was.

 

[smoothshooter]

As a general rule when the diameter was reduced the velocity was increased in military cartridges hence the energy levels and hit capabilities increased and thus killing power.
I have a friend with 3 purple hearts and star or two from Vietnam say the 223 killed like lighting on what ever they hit.
He used every thing from the M-1 carbine to 45 cal grease gun and finally the M-16. He's killed a truck load of men so I differ to his actual experience !

I can believe that. The M193 55gr. Ball round issued during the Vietnam era and later typically penetrated tissue a few inches, tumbled, and broke in two at the cannelure, creating two wound channels.
Years ago I shot a med/large sized feral dog (part of a pack that had chased some of the neighbors’ cattle through some barbed wire fences) broadside through the forward ribs at a little over 130 yards with a M193 FMJ load. Dog went down instantly with a quarter-sized exit wound in the skin on the off side.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have no doubt that the .36 was adequate and did the job - I do want to point out that during the fighting in the Philippines after the S.A.W. - the Army found that the 38s that they had issued lacked the umph to do the job quickly and reissued 45 colts which did the job much better

Actually,

I have no doubt that the .36 was adequate and did the job - I do want to point out that during the fighting in the Philippines after the S.A.W. - the Army found that the 38s that they had issued lacked the umph to do the job quickly and reissued 45 colts which did the job much better

Actually, years ago I came across a couple of Army reports from the period that said while the .45 caliber pistols seemed to be marginally but not always better than the .38’s, the only small arms that put Moros down almost every time were the .45/70, .30/40 Krags, and 12 gauge using 00 buckshot.

 

[snakebit]

Call me a sissy, but I don't wanna be shot with anything. There are scores of Indians, outlaws, Rebs and Yanks, and victims that would agree.

 

[tenngun]

He was.

I think he had a dozen shots or more when arrested. This was 1881? I bet some were cartridge guns

 

[nick_1]

I bet they all were cartridge guns. i have seen the photos of the citizens who shot him and they all had lever action Winchesters expect for a few shotguns and sharps buffalo rifles.

 

[smoothshooter]

Brothers... if you have your Bibles, ( Lyman Black Powder Handbook, 13th printing), you'll see the ballistics for most CNB revolvers.

The 31 Cal, using a 50gr RB, tops out at 795 FPS, for 70 ft/lbs of energy.
I'm guessing close to a 22 LR revolver.

The 36 Cal, using a 81gr RB, tops out at 1097 FPS, for 216 ft/lbs of energy.
Using the 150gr Conical, the top FPS is 787 fps, for 206 ft/lbs of energy.
Using a RB in the 36 is similar, energy wise, to a hot (Ken Waters) load for the 32 S&W Long. The Conical is indeed similar to the 38 S&W.

The 44 Cal, using a 138gr RB, reaches 1032 FPS and delivers 326 ft/lbs of energy.
The Conical, weighing 155grs, reaches 885 FPS, and produces 269 ft/lbs of energy.
Both loads are very similar to duty loads for 38 special, but with more frontal area.

They were fantastic weapons in their day, but like the Model T Ford, there are better options today.

I don’t think foot pounds of energy is a reliable way to judge any loads effectiveness, and never put much stock in It.
There are so many other factors and variables.

 

[smoothshooter]

I recall reading that the Colt Factory received a lot of letters from British Military officers that wrote to Colt complaining about the lack of power from the 36 cal revolvers they purchased to use on Russian troops during the Crimean War.
Lack of adequate bullet penetration through layers of heavy winter apparel was the complaint.
I suspect these type of complaint's possibly helped push the 44 cal revolver into production.

It is also a possibility that the paper cartridges they would have been issued were not full powder charges because some of the cartridge contractors cheated on manufacturing costs by scrimping on the powder charges. Also, those loads would have used the pointed conical bullets because they had parallel sides which made attaching the paper or animal intestine tubing to the rear of the projectile easier.
The longer conicals reduced the space available for powder in the chambers.

 

[Coinneach]

Actually,

Actually, years ago I came across a couple of Army reports from the period that said while the .45 caliber pistols seemed to be marginally but not always better than the .38’s, the only small arms that put Moros down almost every time were the .45/70, .30/40 Krags, and 12 gauge using 00 buckshot.

From what I read those who managed to get their hands on a family supplied ol .45 Colt (LC) revolver did their share of slam and put down.

 

[Dark Angel]

Yes
As hunters we want one shot one quick kill. That’s nice for a deer.
But let’s talk a moment about shot.
Buck shot at close range will kill a man, or disable him too much to fight.
At reasonable rangers buck shot will kill a buck, that’s what it was made for.
But how about # 4
That won’t kill a turkey with a body hit. You need a shot pattern that will mangle the head and neck.
But how about #4 for home defense. A hail of shot into the face or lower body probably won’t kill, but bad guy will loose a lot of fight.
While .36 ain’t going to rip bad guy apart it if not disabling him will decrease his offensive capabilities
During the gold rush of 49 pepper boxes and a little later the ‘51 (49ers were the same gold rush up to about 56) Multi small shot was preferred to one big horse pistol.
When the steam boat Arabia went down it had a big cargo of .45 boot pistols. There were not devastating shots. However they would make a bad guy pause, or if he kept coming slow him down.
Hunting requires a dead body. Self defense only requires a stoped bad guy
Even low power derringers and pocket and muff pistols were very effective as a deterrent or disablier.
Even today most bad guys flee a pistol in the hands of the victim

Glad someone wrote this. Sometimes. I catch heat about carrying my .22 NAA' mouse gun.' Mostly where concealability is an issue. Small perhaps, effective at close range, YES. It will discourage if not disable all but the most determined. Even multiple hits from a .41 mag. won't stop a determined perp as a Wyoming Highway Patrol officer I met many years ago found out when, according to him, he put 6 .41 Mag rounds center mass and the man was still on his feet. Dead, according to the WHP officer, and not aware of it because, again, according to the WHP officer, he was high on PCP (angel dust.) Heard this once, 'The right gun for the situation, is the gun you have on you when you need it.'

 

[smoothshooter]

From what I read those who managed to get their hands on a family supplied ol .45 Colt (LC) revolver did their share of slam and put down.

The effectiveness of American small arms would of course varied with the situation.
Sometimes the Moros, hours ahead of a planned attack, would wrap their testicles tightly in strips of wet leather, load up on opiates, and dance and work themselves into a tribal frenzy. When the leather strips on the testicles dried and shrank even tighter and got more painful, the Moros would attack with bolo knives, machetes, etc.,
In this state, they were somewhat resistant to the shock and pain of gunshot wounds for at least a few seconds or more, unless the brain or critical skeletal structures were broken down.
In those instances it would not have mattered much what they were shot with.

 

[Carnavore Phil]

Hmmm, lots of weapons, lots of calibers, lots of different loads, lost of different targets. The only question needed to be asked is what are you aiming to kill? Get that weapon, that load. Practice, practice to obtain efficiency with the weapon in all aspects. Then, know your target and go kill it. Conjecture comes afterward.

 

[wganz]

So, it's not just caliber, it’s not just velocity, it’s not just bullet design, it's All Three.

Probably the best line posted. A bullet that penetrates to the vitals and does sufficient wounding to stop the threat is the one to have. Today, if you make it to the ER with a GSW, you have a >95% of survival vs. less than 50% with a knife wound. GSW without antibiotics would be almost always be fatal. However, Billy the Kid’s body was identified by having the .36 conical in his chest from being shot by the Union officer.

Interesting side note, the Browning HiPower was designed for a Romanian military contract to use the same diameter bullet as the .36 black powder round but was converted to the now standard 9x19mm round. This round was briefly released in the US as the 9.3mm ACP.