The .36 cap and ball guns were a lot more effective than people today give them credit for. Way back then it was considered adequate for people stopping. Medicine was very primitive and getting shot with anything usually meant a slow death no matter. The little .22 short revolvers and derringers were super popular too and may have resulted in more deaths than all of the other handguns used combined too. The .31 snubby revolvers back then were also quite popular too. Don’t forget that John Wilkes Boothe killed President Lincoln with a .44 Deringer which was likely loaded with what we think was a pipsqueak load. But the bullet still got through his skull with authority. The little .32 long revolvers were common issued sidearms for police up until after WWII. The .32s in Europe were still being used long after WWII in Europe too.
.36 Colt Navy that powerful??????
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There is a YouTube video of a guy shooting an 1863 conical bullet ( yes, I know it's even smaller at 31 caliber ) and I believe he says the conical weighed 70 or 80 grains.
He is shooting from a pretty short distance at gallon water jugs stacked against each other in a line and the bullet was not stopped until it entered the 6th gallon jug
He is shooting from a pretty short distance at gallon water jugs stacked against each other in a line and the bullet was not stopped until it entered the 6th gallon jug
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Hickok killed Davis Tutt at a measured 75 yards with what most believe was a Colt .36. I'll duck for cover.
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Here is an experiment I did shooting water jugs with a .36 conical bullets. I was surprised by the penetration.
On another note, an acquaintance of mine was shot by a .36 revolver during a reenactment in Mississippi many years ago. The ball passed through his privates, blew out one tesitcle and exited the back of his butt check. He made a full recovery (minus one nut). We think the perpetrator was about 80 yards distant and was using a revolver inadvertently left loaded with live rounds. The shooter was never identified. There were many restrictions placed on revolver use in reenactments after that event.
On another note, an acquaintance of mine was shot by a .36 revolver during a reenactment in Mississippi many years ago. The ball passed through his privates, blew out one tesitcle and exited the back of his butt check. He made a full recovery (minus one nut). We think the perpetrator was about 80 yards distant and was using a revolver inadvertently left loaded with live rounds. The shooter was never identified. There were many restrictions placed on revolver use in reenactments after that event.
Shot placement in that case sadly and a tragedy.
Bingo
And there we have it, no formula yet has or ever can account for a shot into a body.
Dump 12 people in cold water, one will go into shock and sink (and yes I know of an incident exactly like that) some last a few minutes, some a lot longer.
Make my day, predict what will happen, if you can do that then you should be in Vegas or playing the stock market!
my 58 is my everyday truck gun mostly because of 3 factors.
#1. my threat level is really low.
#2. I don't like the energy of plastic guns these days. if I had a Black hawk I would probobly carry that instead of the 58.
#3. I am shooting the 58 better than my plastic thing at the moment. if for some reason the threat level rose to a real level orange I would buy a case of 9mm and bring the plastic thing up to speed. I shoot one cylinder a week through the 58 to keep it fresh but I put about 1k through it when I bought it so its fresh in my muscle memory. maybe if I got a case of .38 XP I could get my Security six up to speed as its been decades since I really spent time with that but its just easier to shoot six shots a week and stay current with the 58. again the actual threat level is next to zero.
my six shots with the 58 today. one close miss on a 50yrd 6" steel, follow up shot was a solid hit, 2 good hits on a 30yrd tree in close proximity to the knott hole i was aiming at. tree is about 10" in diamater. 2 solid hits on a 25yrd 5" steel. as long as I shoot her fresh every week ashe has been behaving but I have no illusions that she is as reliable as a modern cartridge gun. I am just more dialed with this revolver at the moment than any of my other pistols with the exception of the Le Page. went 7 for 9 today with that shooting steel on my biathlon course which is not what I would consider a pistol course. Last weekend I was 9th overall with the le page out of 66 competitors most of whom were shooting long guns.
#1. my threat level is really low.
#2. I don't like the energy of plastic guns these days. if I had a Black hawk I would probobly carry that instead of the 58.
#3. I am shooting the 58 better than my plastic thing at the moment. if for some reason the threat level rose to a real level orange I would buy a case of 9mm and bring the plastic thing up to speed. I shoot one cylinder a week through the 58 to keep it fresh but I put about 1k through it when I bought it so its fresh in my muscle memory. maybe if I got a case of .38 XP I could get my Security six up to speed as its been decades since I really spent time with that but its just easier to shoot six shots a week and stay current with the 58. again the actual threat level is next to zero.
my six shots with the 58 today. one close miss on a 50yrd 6" steel, follow up shot was a solid hit, 2 good hits on a 30yrd tree in close proximity to the knott hole i was aiming at. tree is about 10" in diamater. 2 solid hits on a 25yrd 5" steel. as long as I shoot her fresh every week ashe has been behaving but I have no illusions that she is as reliable as a modern cartridge gun. I am just more dialed with this revolver at the moment than any of my other pistols with the exception of the Le Page. went 7 for 9 today with that shooting steel on my biathlon course which is not what I would consider a pistol course. Last weekend I was 9th overall with the le page out of 66 competitors most of whom were shooting long guns.
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Same reason I pack an Army Colt around. Nobody to bother me anyway but a man ought to have a belt gun handy anyway. Never know when something needs shooting.
smoothshooter
50 Cal.
Ballistically, a full charge .36 Navy load is roughly equivalent to the warmer .380 ACP pistol round, but with better bullet performance.
The .36 is not a wimp caliber in a handgun with a decent powder charge.
I did with a 1858 .44 early season. But after the testing I did to get ready for the shot I wouldn't try it with a .36 personally. But within limits it would be capable.
Now I gotta go get me one and do some testing!
smoothshooter
50 Cal.
There is some confusion about whether Hickok shot Tutt with an 1860 Army or 1851 navy. Most people assume Hickok was using a Navy in the Tutt shooting because he was so associated with it after the war. Odds are that is correct, but we will never know for sure.
But there is no doubt that a .36 ball on top of a full load of powder in a revolver has been very effective against human targets in times past.
Hickok and his admirers in the old days spread word around that he fired his guns empty every morning and reloaded them with fresh charges. Even though he practiced more than almost anybody else, the daily shooting off of yesterday’s loads is probably bunk.
Hickok was smart enough to know that maintaining a fearsome reputation, even if a little exaggerated, worked to his advantage when he wanted to intimidate a belligerent opponent as a law-enforcement officer or private citizen. He preferred to not shoot people when that was an option.
There is no doubt that he was a very good shot with any kind of gun. Multiple contemporary accounts by people who were not particularly fans of his even verified that.
I live about 15 miles from where the Hickok-Tutt shooting happened, and have been there. Can’t say how much skill or luck or both was on Bill’s side that day, but making a shot like that under stress ( and Tutt may have fired first or simultaneously at Bill ) is pretty remarkable.
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I knew a man who took a roundball from a bp revolver to the sternum at about 10'.
He didn't make it.
Dr said if he had been shot in the ER with the best trauma team in the nation at the ready, they could not have saved him.
Damn DA let the killer skate with manslaughter and a 10 year sentence, he was out in 5. That is another story....
Never doubt when you hold one of these guns that they are lethal.
He didn't make it.
Dr said if he had been shot in the ER with the best trauma team in the nation at the ready, they could not have saved him.
Damn DA let the killer skate with manslaughter and a 10 year sentence, he was out in 5. That is another story....
Never doubt when you hold one of these guns that they are lethal.
Its really not a question of lethal, its how much so and what credence you would put into that.
While people hark back to the Civil War and how many slain by a 36 cal. How many were actually shot vs how many were carried?
It really comes down to statistics and today we have some decent ones. Enough people shot (sadly) you can come up with the data that 9mm to 44 caliber and 45 ACP - it makes no difference. I did a serious deep dive into it.
One of the worst cases I know of were two troopers checking out a report of a nut job dropped off at a gas station. They responded in the troopers car.
The driver was a uniformed trooper carrying a 357 magnum. The other trooper was a detective who happened to be at the station when the report came in and rode along with the uniformed trooper. He was carrying a High Power 9mm. It was an unsettling report of the guy having a sack of guns and making weird statements so the detective thought it was a good idea to go with the Uniformed guy.
When the two troopers got out of the car, the nut job pulled a gun out of the sack and opened fire on the Uniformed trooper.
Both troopers returned fire, the Unformed trooper was the focus of the nut job. This is from memory but I think the Uniformed trooper hit the nut job 5 x with his 357 (after that he was so badly wounded he was out of the fight and never returned to duty he was so crippled).
The Detective continued shooting, the Nut Job finally dropped. I won't claim to remember how many 9mm rounds exactly, but it was something like 6. Truly amazing shooting by both of the troopers.
If you follow the statistics on gun fights. It was phenomenal.
The detective having the easier part by far as he was not getting shot at, but the insane levels of adremelin even for well trained people usually means few actual hits. Distance was around 50 feet and again from memory.
What dropped the Nut Job? The last 9mm round clipped his aorta and he bled out. All those other rounds and he was still functioning. Ok, you got a hyped up nut job and getting hit did not bother him a bit. Someone else? Sometimes its one hit and they quit.
Ok, a bit off the range here, but when people shoot Grizzly bears (trophy hunting) the guide shoots right after the client.
If you drop a Grizzly with the first shot(s) its usually a non issue. Wound one, well that is why the guide shoots. You never know how bad a client is going to be (assuming a non familiar client or one they know can't shoot)
Its worth going back to Elmer Keith. He and a group of 4 others were out hunting in the Western Area of Alaska (Caribou) and had made a loop out and on the way back. All were armed with 30 caliber on up, including one 35 Whalen in the group.
Typical terrain out there is flatter areas with mounds dotted here and there. The 5 had climbed up a mound for a good look around and were taking a break. One guy looks at their back trail and a Grizzly bear is about to hit the bottom slope of the mound going full steam.
Yep, all experienced hunter and they did exactly what you would think they would do, they spread out and started shooting along side the guy who spotted it who started shooting first.
The bear dropped 15 feet from them, all or almost all were hits and they all used up the magazine. A lot of hits is unbelievably rare, often a hunter does not even get a shot off at an attacking Grizzly).
They back tracked their trail to see if they could sort out what had a Grizzly come up on them (its extremly rare for one to actively follow people, vast majority are sudden encounters). They found the Grizzly had cut their trail behind them and was after them. Pissed off? No. Focused? Yep.
You hold a 36 BP on me, revolver or not I am handing over my wallet.
While people hark back to the Civil War and how many slain by a 36 cal. How many were actually shot vs how many were carried?
It really comes down to statistics and today we have some decent ones. Enough people shot (sadly) you can come up with the data that 9mm to 44 caliber and 45 ACP - it makes no difference. I did a serious deep dive into it.
One of the worst cases I know of were two troopers checking out a report of a nut job dropped off at a gas station. They responded in the troopers car.
The driver was a uniformed trooper carrying a 357 magnum. The other trooper was a detective who happened to be at the station when the report came in and rode along with the uniformed trooper. He was carrying a High Power 9mm. It was an unsettling report of the guy having a sack of guns and making weird statements so the detective thought it was a good idea to go with the Uniformed guy.
When the two troopers got out of the car, the nut job pulled a gun out of the sack and opened fire on the Uniformed trooper.
Both troopers returned fire, the Unformed trooper was the focus of the nut job. This is from memory but I think the Uniformed trooper hit the nut job 5 x with his 357 (after that he was so badly wounded he was out of the fight and never returned to duty he was so crippled).
The Detective continued shooting, the Nut Job finally dropped. I won't claim to remember how many 9mm rounds exactly, but it was something like 6. Truly amazing shooting by both of the troopers.
If you follow the statistics on gun fights. It was phenomenal.
The detective having the easier part by far as he was not getting shot at, but the insane levels of adremelin even for well trained people usually means few actual hits. Distance was around 50 feet and again from memory.
What dropped the Nut Job? The last 9mm round clipped his aorta and he bled out. All those other rounds and he was still functioning. Ok, you got a hyped up nut job and getting hit did not bother him a bit. Someone else? Sometimes its one hit and they quit.
Ok, a bit off the range here, but when people shoot Grizzly bears (trophy hunting) the guide shoots right after the client.
If you drop a Grizzly with the first shot(s) its usually a non issue. Wound one, well that is why the guide shoots. You never know how bad a client is going to be (assuming a non familiar client or one they know can't shoot)
Its worth going back to Elmer Keith. He and a group of 4 others were out hunting in the Western Area of Alaska (Caribou) and had made a loop out and on the way back. All were armed with 30 caliber on up, including one 35 Whalen in the group.
Typical terrain out there is flatter areas with mounds dotted here and there. The 5 had climbed up a mound for a good look around and were taking a break. One guy looks at their back trail and a Grizzly bear is about to hit the bottom slope of the mound going full steam.
Yep, all experienced hunter and they did exactly what you would think they would do, they spread out and started shooting along side the guy who spotted it who started shooting first.
The bear dropped 15 feet from them, all or almost all were hits and they all used up the magazine. A lot of hits is unbelievably rare, often a hunter does not even get a shot off at an attacking Grizzly).
They back tracked their trail to see if they could sort out what had a Grizzly come up on them (its extremly rare for one to actively follow people, vast majority are sudden encounters). They found the Grizzly had cut their trail behind them and was after them. Pissed off? No. Focused? Yep.
You hold a 36 BP on me, revolver or not I am handing over my wallet.
BeardedGunsmith
40 Cal
There's no doubt about it, shot placement is more important than bullet weight or size. I mean no disrespect when using this analogy but the little 32acp cartridge was used widely by nazi Germany and accounted for the majority of jews murdered.
As an aside, statistically speaking in the US the 22lr accounts for more firearm deaths than any other cartridge.
As an aside, statistically speaking in the US the 22lr accounts for more firearm deaths than any other cartridge.
I often use to hear about not using a 22 for self defense. If that's all I had I would use it, it's better then a stick. That's why I always used to practice, I could hit what I was aiming at, like the testicles or face.
My favorite cap and ball revolver is a 1851 .36 Navy. With a moderately heavy load, it will throw a .380 round ball at just over 1100 fps. Can get around 900 fps with a 130 grain conical. Either will do the job on the intended target at appropriate range, I prefer 20 yards or less. There are accounts of Civil War calvary vets stating that they waited until being within 10 yards as a good range to engage the enemy with a revolver. I killed a fairly large 9 point buck with my .36 and a round ball at 12 yards. It was all I had, and i knew I could place the shot where it needed to go. It worked well enough, but wouldn't make it a regular practice. A .44 revolver is "more gooder" for deer sized critters.
I'm with you on that. In my opinion a gun should be made of steel and maybe some brass and wood.
It just feels much better in the hand, like a gun should
I know a Man in town here that was carrying a 44 cap and ball and the dummy probably had the hammer on a live percussion cap or possibly it may have slipped from the safety notch
( I knew the man personally in the past and he was never going to be accused of being the sharpest butter knife in the drawer...)
He was climbing into or out of his boat on a trailer and had the gun in a holster and may have dropped it or possibly fired in the holster ( I don't know all of the exact details except for what I have stated ) but I do know the round ball hit him in the femoral artery and he bled out within a matter of minutes.
I have no doubt it could have happened the same had it been a 36 caliber.
I myself will always carry on an empty chamber.
Remember that though everyone in life has a purpose, it doesn't mean that it will always be grand or lofty.... Some people exist only to serve as a warning to others.
I know they say not to speak ill of the dead but he wasn't much use when he was alive
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Bullet design, caliber, fps all have a LOT to do with performance.
For example, until the 1980s, the 158gr LRN 38 Special was the most issued cop cartridge. This was/is a fairly soft bullet, and had a terrible track record of over penetration on flesh and fail to penetrate everything else. It got many cops/bystanders hurt. I was surprised how much the 126gr era's gone bullet resembled that bullet. Maybe that explains the penetration.
In revolvers the best one shot stop cartridge was the 357 mag, with Federal 125gr JHP. It had everyone chasing their tail.
The 9mm with 115gr bullet was pretty sad, especially if FMJ variety. I worked with old timers who insisted on fmj loads, mostly former military. I asked to be their beneficiary. The 147gr was NEVER intended to be a duty round; hype over its use by military spec ops got more good guys hurt.
The 9mm was pulled by most departments after the famous Miami Shootout, the 10mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig all attempted to improve one shot stops. Most did, with the right bullet.
I can tell you the 40S&W FMJ is a joke.
Now comes the Hornady Critical Duty 9mm load with 124gr Flexlock bullet at 1175fps. This bullet design, plus weight, and velocity, is what allowed it to pass ALL of the FBI protocols for a sidearm cartridge, the 1st bullet to Ever do that. Many departments are switching back to the 9mm simply because of the Bullet, not the cartridge.
So, it's not just caliber, its not just velocity, its not just bullet design, it's All Three.
For example, until the 1980s, the 158gr LRN 38 Special was the most issued cop cartridge. This was/is a fairly soft bullet, and had a terrible track record of over penetration on flesh and fail to penetrate everything else. It got many cops/bystanders hurt. I was surprised how much the 126gr era's gone bullet resembled that bullet. Maybe that explains the penetration.
In revolvers the best one shot stop cartridge was the 357 mag, with Federal 125gr JHP. It had everyone chasing their tail.
The 9mm with 115gr bullet was pretty sad, especially if FMJ variety. I worked with old timers who insisted on fmj loads, mostly former military. I asked to be their beneficiary. The 147gr was NEVER intended to be a duty round; hype over its use by military spec ops got more good guys hurt.
The 9mm was pulled by most departments after the famous Miami Shootout, the 10mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig all attempted to improve one shot stops. Most did, with the right bullet.
I can tell you the 40S&W FMJ is a joke.
Now comes the Hornady Critical Duty 9mm load with 124gr Flexlock bullet at 1175fps. This bullet design, plus weight, and velocity, is what allowed it to pass ALL of the FBI protocols for a sidearm cartridge, the 1st bullet to Ever do that. Many departments are switching back to the 9mm simply because of the Bullet, not the cartridge.
So, it's not just caliber, its not just velocity, its not just bullet design, it's All Three.
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He would not have survived if he had a 22, or a sharp stick, unless someone immediately applied a tourniquet.
It's all about shot placement. Jim Cirillo dropped 9 perps with that lousy 38sp LRN . He also won the Bianci cup. Most cops are not proficient with their service gun. And yes grizzly bears absolutely follow hunters knowing they will get a gut pile. Sometimes they get greedy and want the whole kill.
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