3F for 12GA

[Runner]

For those with light bird hunting type guns, 3f kicks a lot more than 2f and it doesn't pattern as well either. I had usable patterns, but the recoil was a PITA. My gun is a little under 5 pounds.

 

[DanChamberlain]

For another perspective, go here.

Ross Seyfried is my guru in these matters.
[url] http://www.98.net/ibha/shotguns.htm[/url]

Dan

 

[xxgrampa]

dan,,

very interesting.. thank you..

..ttfn..grampa..

 

[DanChamberlain]

Welcome.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

The problem I have with Ross' article is that he is quoting data from the 1880s, when choked guns were available. He seems oblivious to the differences needed to get good patterns from a cylinder bore barrel.

Also, he suggests he knows how strong or weak black powder made back then in the 1880s in Britain were, compared to the powder we now shoot, without any convincing evidence that he has compared the two. I am very sceptical about that.

I don't know how those old powders burned, or what kind of pressure they created. I doubt anyone does. We know that how fast black powder burns is related almost exclusively to the size of the granules, as the formula has been pretty well fixed for hundreds of year. I know that if I screen Black powder, I get more consistent velocities on my chronograph, and less residue in the barrel to clean.

The problem I have with using FFFg powder in modern cylinder bore shotgun barrels is that it builds pressure too fast, and there is not much of a window there to work on a load. That is, the powder charges are not very forgiving using FFFg. Now, if you use the coarser, slower burning, less pressure producing FFg powder, you can be off a few grains of powder, and even up to 10 grains of powder and not see much change in a pattern. I have known men who shoot 10 and 8 gauge guns to use Fg powder to good effect. Again, screening the powder gives greater consistency, and less powder residue in the bore.

If you are going to shoot lead shot, then a slow shove to the shot column that does not mishape the bottom rows of shot is going to put more pellets in your pattern at the target. The faster pressure builds, the more distorted, and mishapened shot pellets leave the barrel and drop out of your pattern quickly. Remember that we are not working up a load to shoot a heavy round ball out to 100 yds. The shotgun pattern is going to hit its target, clay or game, within 30 yards, unless you have choke in the barrel. High Muzzle velocity is not necessary to kill birds that are going to weigh 25 lbs. tops, at those short range. Use a heavier size shot ( ie. #5, instead of #6 shot in a rabbit/pheasant load, compared to what you might choose for a modern breechloading cartridge shotgun using a choked barrel) to kill the bird or animal. I use #8 shot for dove, but will switch to #7 1/2 shot if the winds are blowing heavy that day. I do not use #9 shot, although that size works very well in my breechloading, choked, 12 gauge shotguns.

 

[Runner]

I did not go read the article yet, but it sounds interesting. I pretty much depend on my shoulder and the pattern board just the other side of the barn for that kind of info. Also, I am using Pyrodex for most loads. That changes some things. 90 of 3f or P under 120 of number 6's is pure death on turkeys out to 40 yards. It is hard to get anyone to shoot it twice unless there is a real turkey there for the second shot! Change that to 2f or RS, and the recoil is much better, but it is still a magnum level load. An afternoon of light loads is a joy with the 2f powders, and a pounding with 3f. Penetration is pretty much the same at 30 yards. Why get beat on for nothing?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I, too, have great respect for Ross and eagerly await his articles in the DGJ. However, my fowlers are much longer in the barrel than Ross's shotguns and FFg with its slower burn rate gives a more consistent burn in these long barrels. And I am most pleased with my patterns and the effectiveness of these loads on game. As Paul points out, no one really knows the actual performance parameters of the 19th century powders anyway. In my case, I am more likely duplicating 18th century birding practices and ballistics and am all the happier for it! :hatsoff:

 

[DanChamberlain]

Paul,

Ross is telling us what he uses and why. In essence, it is no more or less viable an opinion than any stated on this thread or on this forum. I offered the link as another "perspective" rather than a final conclusion.

The originator of this thread asked a question, and I believe he was getting a lot of good advice, but I believed the article by Seyfried was a "must read" for any black powder smoothbore enthusiast.

I doubt, based on what I've read of his many black powder articles, that Ross is oblivious to anything concerning the muzzleloader, much less cylinder bore shotguns. Be that as it may, as a writer myself, I may have learned something about a certain subject based on years of experience and not just a few books on the subject. Yet, I can make observations in my articles based on that research, without having to reinvent the wheel each and every time I make a point.

Ross shoots mainly "vintage" weapons in his muzzleloaders, both smooth and rifled. His research is exhaustive and while you may not feel he presented convincing data to support his observations, the paragraph pertaining to the relative efficiency and power of vintage black powders and black powder shooters was fairly demonstrative of indepth research. Sometimes, a person's credibility is based on a history of delivering factual observations that simply ring of expertise and honesty. Ross is a careful and deliberate shooter and researcher.

As to what is better in smoothbores, 3f or 2f or even 1f, it's a matter of personal choice and experience. The inefficiency of black powder allows for a wide range powder charges within a certain desired performance, regardless of the granulation, depending on what the individual shooter does or does not do to prepare the shot charge.

Some people like to have 3 or 4 different powders laying around. Some don't. I don't. I have one granulation of powder for everything. 3f. I use it in my long rifle for both the main charge and the priming charge. I use it in my percussion big bore, my pistols, my shotguns and anything that shoots black powder that might be in my gun safe, to include cartridge firearms.

What I hoped to do was to offer to the originator of this thread, a perspective he may not have read before, and an entertaining and enjoyable essay on the black powder shotgun.

Best wishes.

Dan

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Bringing Ross into the discussion adds a valuable resource--wish I'd thought to mention him. I know folks who don't like having different granulations of powder around, but I like FFFg for my revolvers and small bore rifles. Sometimes I prime with FFFG, but usually I just prime with whatever is in the horn.
This truly is a sport for individualists and iconoclasts and is all the better for it. May we all continue to agree and disagree as gentlemen.

 

[roundball]

Thanks for the link...you can never have too many articles on black powder muzzleloading
:hatsoff:

 

[Runner]

I was the same way with powder for years because I don't like to have much around at a time. 3f in everything. Now I use 2f in just about everything including my 36. A 4.5 pound 12 guage will do that to ya!
I am shooting a 30 inch light weight barrel with choke tubes.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dan>

I used to be a fan of Ross Seifreid, but I tired of his British/ african orientation to everything guns, and game, and his finding little ways to down grade American guns, gunmakers, powders, and game. I would be more impressed with his research if he ever used a chronograph. Numbers are not everything , but they surely help sort through the garbage fast. I was interested in African game and guns, until he wrote what I thought and still think is a silly article where he demonstrates shooting some monster elephant gun from a crouched position, and has pictures of himself being pushed back off his feet and on his back and shoulders by the recoil. I guess he was trying to impress everyone with how much recoil those guns delivered, and how tough he was to voluntarily shoot such a gun. It didn't matter that the old professional hunters who actually shot those huge guns did so in an upright position, leaning forward into the gun, and using an iosmetric stance to distribute the recoil between both arms and shoulders. That did it for me. I have better things to do than read articles that are that silly.

I know the guy is trying to make a living, and writers are not paid much for their work, but I thought he had stuped to a new low. Because I also write articles, I am usually pretty tolerant of other authors. But Ross has pushed me past my limit of tolerance. I am sure he's a fine man, and it would be fun to have dinner and drinks with him, and even hunt with him. However, please don't ask me to read more of his articles. Every once in awhile, My brother, Peter, will find something new he has written and send me an edited portion of an article. I read it to be able to discuss the issue with my brother, out of respect for him. But, if I am paging through a magazine that has an article by Ross Seifriend, I just keep turning pages to get to the next article.

 

[ffffg]

Whether we want to admidt it or not, shotguns are going thru tremendous changes right now.. Please bear with me on this for a minute so i can relate it to black powder.. as lead was made illegal for waterfoul and steel came out it made, in many peoples eyes the 20 guage moot. and the 10 soared in popularity.... Now that tungsten is out its making the 10 guage moot.. We are on the virge of bismuth going out, altho i believe it may be back when someone takes over the plant(the current owner has passed away.).. But soon tungsten will have a plastic coating over powdered tungsten, making it usefull for black powder cylinder bore, or choked bp guns,new or original.... Im a duck hunter and luckily have secured 7 lbs of bismuth number 4 for ducks just recently till this lull passes.. .. They just dont make bismuth large enought for black powder velocities and the giant canadians we have here.. If i knew a farmer for 10 years that would alow me to get on his land every year i could use bb at close range with decoys in the opening weeks.. There are very few pheasants near here.. So if us waterfowelers are patient the 12 guage will be all we need, and my favoite chambers 16 guage will do the job for the same range im shooting ducks right now.. The point is that 10 gauge is very difficult to get much past 1050 ft per second with any kind of powder/load..Espesially in cold weather.. The huge bore lets big loads blow by the card, being difficult to seal on a dependable basis .. (a huge load of lead bb would be just fine at 1000fps , and deadly for big geese, has been, will be forever, but illegal)...... the 12 is much better at getting higher velocities , as the 20 is better than the 12..(i guess im talking about loads that can be satisfactorily and comfortably handled by a 180 pound human... Im sure Paul could give us a couple pages of why, but im interested in results in the field.. So the shot that is legal and works (right now) is buismuth, and its largest shot number bb is not big enough for big geese at 35 yards in cold weather, and heavy winter down(at winter bp velocities).. ., Now if you have small geese where you live that may not be an issue.. (I want clean kills).. Again the point is when the denser shot (tungsten) comes about, and is in large enough sizes, the 12 gauge flintlock will be adequate, and with a choke it will be just as good as a 10 guage in competent hands.. :grin: :v Ps: this stuff will definitly be expensive.. dave..

 

[Mike Brooks]

I've used 3fff in almost all muzzleloaders since 1980. I use 2ff in cartridge shotguns.
Chronographs.....Speed is irrelevent in muzzle loading guns when it comes to hunting. It's mass that kills when using muzzleloaders. Hence bigger shot size for shotguns and bigger ball for rifles is what gets the killing done. How fast the projectile gets to the beast makes no difference. Size matters...... :wink:
Why do I use 3fff you ask? I find speed of ignition to be a bit quicker, and it burns cleaner, that's about it.

 

[roundball]

Why do I use 3fff you ask? I find speed of ignition to be a bit quicker, and it burns cleaner, that's about it.

That's been my experience as well...plus...recently pattern testing shot loads in a .54cal/.28ga, I experimented with 60/70/80grns Goex 3F, then Goex 2F, and the patterns were not as good as those with 3F

 

[DanChamberlain]

Paul

I recognize that a writer can get under one's skin. I feel the same way about Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith. I find their matter-of-fact, I-Know-Best style to be abrasive. But I also recognize that both of them have done more gun work than I will in my lifetime; more game killing and load development than I would ever have the time for.

Still and all, while I don't read them much if at all anymore - having gravitated to a more curiousity driven style - I know that there are some who value their opinions, and understand where those opinions were developed and nurtured. When I see a poster on other forums suggest that an "O'Connorism" or a "Keithism" is appropriate in a certain situation, I wouldn't suggest that they are wrong, simply because I don't agree with the style by which such reasoning had evolved.

I hope that you appreciate that I appreciate your advice and wisdom.

Best wishes.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dan: I admired Elmer Keith during his life because of his work with handguns, and his willingness to show all his critics that he could do what he wrote he had done. I was never a fan of O-Connor. He was a pompous Aristocrat wannabe, closed minded, as was Elmer about certain subjects. Elmer was poorly educated, terribly burned in a fire that should have killed him, Rehabilitated his body by techniques that would be considered Human torture today, and by sheer will, guts, and determination, became a master pistol shooter, who could shoot well with both hands, including his badly burned and crippled Left Hand. He carried scars on the side of his face from that fire all the rest of his life, and magazine editors had their photographers take pictures of his " good side " to hide the scarring from his public. But, Elmer was as close minded about many guns as was O-Connor, and would be a pain in the butt to talk to today. I have 3 of his books including Sixguns, and his ' Hell, I was there " biography, which is worth reading if you want to get a flavor of what life was like in the first 2 decades of the 20th century as we transitioned from Black Powder to Smokeless powder ammunition and firearms. The one thing I had noticed in earlier photos of Keith, but was not discussed or explained until he wrote his biography, was that his feet stopped growing after the fire, and as an adult, he wore a size 3 kids boot. When you read the details of the fire, how his father saved his life, and then what he underwent to recover the use of his Left Hand, you begin to understand why he never wanted to make an issue out of his disability, or scars, and how they shaped his character. For that, anyone here would admire the man. I once read a column where the author took the time to figure out when was the last time that Elmer actually fired a .30-06 at game, and concluded it must be no later than 1932! Elmer was alway looking down on the cartridge for anything bigger than wester jack rabbits based on his experience using new, and untested, copper jacketed bullets that were suppose to expand, but didn't, on Elk. Elmer had a bad taste in his mouth for how the cartridge performed on game, after that, and he never tried another bullet in that caliber on game again. And he always put down the .30-06 as a deer or Elk cartridge, saying it was inadequate, which had thousands of successful hunters scratching their heads and wondering what Elmer was drinking when he wrote that nonsense.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Roundball and Mike Brooks: I don't have any reason to argue with your choice to use FFFg powder in your shotguns. If you find a load that works for you, more power to you. My experience shows me that FFg is more foregiving, and allowed me to develop a load that gave good patterns out of a cylinder bore shotgun, with less work. The pellet count in the pattern was higher when I used FFg, which is what really caught my attention. Then, I used my chronograph to investigate why that was happening.

 

[DanChamberlain]

Paul

I've read: "Hell I Was There", three times. It's on my bookshelf.

Regards

Dan

 

[ffffg]

"Then, I used my chronograph to investigate why that was happening." I agree 100 percent.. A chronograph can nix a bad load in several shots.. Some guys who think they are getting good patterns could be surprised what the chrono says.. A good load should pattern well. Have decent velocity, that is over 1000 fps (my opinion only), be within 100 fps variance (or less if possible) and have terminal pennetration for the game and yardage your after, determeined with a phone book... This can be found by using the gun in the field.. Good success there (in the field) is what your after.. The BUT is, once youv found a load that works in the field,, you pattern it, chrono it, and see what the pennetration average is at your killing distance with a phone book, record it and you have a formula for making any other gun shoot as competent without considerable time.. the chrono can also be used to duplicate patterns in the same gun when you need a load for cold (or hotter) weather.. that is lets say at 70 degrees you have your dream pattern with 2f.. It will take you minimal time at 0 degrees to duplicat the velocity, patterns and pennetration with more or hotter powder.... Phew.. that wasnt easy to get out.. dave
:v