3F for 12GA

[Mike Brooks]

My main point for is for all the fellows here scratching their heads wondering where the heck they're going to come up with the scratch for a chrongraph.....They aren't absolutly needed. In 25 years of shooting flint guns I've never used one. I've killed everything that flys or runs in the midwest, and clays are dead meat. I've got several things that work for me and I stick with them.
I can get most flint fowlers up and patterning well with my basic starting loads, same with roundball and rifles. Loading black powder fowlers isn't rocket science, and chronos are way out there in outerspace when it comes to capital outlay. Just my opinion of course. :haha:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dave: I found my gun patterns best if I keep the load below 1100 fps. ( the nominal speed of sound). Since I am only interested in killing birds out to 35 yds, at most, using my cylinder bore gun, I don't need more velocity. And the velocity loss for supersonic loads, as we shoot with modern shotgun powders and loads, is so fast as to lose any real velocity advantage within the first 20 yards. The tables in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual tell all of that, and also give a good idea of what kind of pellet energy exists at various velocities. The larger size shot will kill well at the slower velocities within 35-40 yards. I found that out both in the tables, and in the field. Add choke to a barrel on a fowler, or shotgun, and you can have killing patterns well past 40 yards. Roundball has proved that proposition.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mike: You make it sound like a Chronograph costs as much as one of your guns! Really, you can buy them for around $100. There is absolutely no reason why several friends, or even a gun club should not pool money to buy a chronograph that everyone can use. Mine doesn't get as much use as it could.

Yes, you can tell a lot about loads without a chronograph. I did it for more than 25 years before I finally owned one. But, I spent hours learning all that information about reading patches, penetration testing, and other indications that my load was either good or No good. The Chronograph helps cut through all this guesswork, and gives you data you either can repeat, or can't. It shows you what happens when you change loading components, or loading techniques, or even cleaning practices.

My Brother and I used a Chronograph to check out something he saw at his first Chunk Gun shoot, and that was shooters lubing their barrels after seating the PRB. The Chronograph told us 2 things of use. 1. The Lubing gave the load about 25fps more velocity than the same load shot without the lube. 2. The Standard deviation in velocity went down when the barrel was lubed that way, compared to shooting the gun without lubing it. The Decrease was substantial, enough to show improved group size.

That bit of knowledge has proved invaluable, and justified the cost of the Chronograph( about $80.00 for me). As Dan from Montana indicates, the other use a Chronograph can help you is to find a comparable load for different temperatures of shooting, and also help you tweak a load when you get a new lot of powder. As long as you can get the new load to shoot to the same velocity, the barrel harmonics will be the same and you should get the same accuracy with the new component.

I grew up without air conditioning in my house. But, I would not be without it today. I feel the same about the Chronograph. I can live without it, but I have better things to do with my time at the range than to work up the loads the old fashioned ways I used to use. When someone tells me a different way of doing something, I can try it out quickly over a chronograph, and find out if it helps or hurts my load, and shooting.

 

[Runner]

I scanned the article. I don't agree with several of his points, but only one really needs addressing. That is the advice to increase powder load for better patterns. I shoot a 3-4 loading and that is as hot as my gun will go before the patterns start to blow. That is with several guns and with any wads I have tried including several brands of card wads, nitro cards, CVA plastic wads, Knight 2 ounce plastic wads, regular trap wads, and heavy steel wads uncut. A 1-1 loading is barely usable and a 3-4 load is too tight and makes you pull off game to keep from tearing it up. I don't remember the last time someone posted a load hotter than 1-1 for any shotgun loads prior to reading that article. I suspect that is because it does not work in any muzzleloading shotgun I have ever used. I see a lot of that in articles written by regulars. I used to read about what works. Now I walk to the pattern board, spray paint the board, and shoot. I have corrected the point of impact completely now by bending the barrel, and I can produce patterns that are too tight for hunting most things. Heck, I can use an uncut steel wad and shoot to point of aim at 30 yards with a prefragmented slug if I want. I can't shoot hotter than 1-1 loads with any consistancy at all. On the other hand, he is the first to actually tell the truth about Pyrodex and the larger bore shotguns that I have read. That says he actually did some testing because most folks either don't know that or refuse to believe it.
Turkeys, squirrels, rabbits, and dove so far with this gun. Hopefully ducks this year if I can ever get a steel load that I like worked out. No way can I spend over 100$ for enough shot to load 70 shots.

 

[DanChamberlain]

Bob;

The article was a pretty basic, beginner's introduction to muzzleloading shotguns. The only reason I linked it was to illustrate that 3f powder - the topic of this discussion - was suitable for many muzzleloading shotguns and smoothbores.

At the same time, not many of the reasons objecting to 3f in the shotgun carry much sway. Powder charges can be adjusted to meet the velocity requirements of the gunner, be it above or below 1100fps. Cushion wads can be adjusted from thin to thick to meet the needs of the gunner's pattern requirements as well.

The unique beauty of muzzleloading smoothbores, is that one can load to very light requirements for kids and squirrels to hefty challenges like Canada Geese or big Tom Turkey and the decision to make such adjustments can be made instantly in the field rather than having to carry around different shells for different games.

A chronograph is a useful thing, and I use mine a lot for load development with single projectiles, but can't see a whole lot of need for multi-projectiles. Pattern is the most important aspect of putting game on the table and a pattern target will tell me when the load is right, regardless whether the size 6s are moving out at 1000fps or 1100fps or somewhere up or down from that.

I tend to load heavier shot charges, using 75 grains of fffg and loading my shot by volume to about grain 85 equivalent in a measure. I use half a Circle Fly cushion wad soaked in melted bore butter and pour my shot directly down the bore with out benefit of any other enhancement. I manage to produce patterns that would ensure a turkey inside 25 to 30 yards if I could just stay still enough so the darn things wouldn't see me!

Doves are a little trickier for me. I manage to bag some...but I still have follow-through issues I'm working on. It's funny, but rabbits seem easier for me than doves.

Anyway, since the originator of this thread was asking about 3f in smoothbores, I thought I'd suggest that in fact it is not only appropriate, but historically common.

Regards

Dan

 

[ffffg]

A hotter than 1-1 load is usfull in skeet.. If i understand which way you mean is hotter.. Especially in the last station, i think it is, when your shooting strait up at a 60 mph bird, i dont know a bout 15 feet over your head.. The bigger the pattern the better.. I havnt shot skeet for some time and wish i could back at it.. It really rounds out the shottgunning skills, and it cuts down on my aiming problem.. Cuts down heck, it stops aiming, to lead a skeet target 4 feet is minimum with flintlock at some station.. Cant rememember, some may be 8 feet. Like i said cant remember, but what a hoot with a 42 inch barrel.... 9 shot and lots of powder.. dave...

 

[ffffg]

A sporting goods store used to rent a chrono here for about 6 bucks.. I think he made more money on that than selling them.. But id get all my stuff together rent it for an afternooon, and do all my chrono work on a new gun, or new shot, or new loads.. for rifle, once ive worked up a load i can sight it in at 50 or 75 or 100 yards, and have the trajectory printed out from 10- 120 yards by every 10 yards.... sounds sacriligeous, .:nono: but :v , do it any way you like :bow: ...... dave :grin: