3F now the same as 2F during the Civil War

[gjkershul]

In reading the information on ammunition posted on the Winchester Sutler site-a N-SSA sutler/ vendor- I came across the statement that 3F powder now is the same granulation as 2F powder during the American Civil War 140 years ago. Does anyone on the forum have verifying or other information on this point?

 

[Tumblernotch]

Well, there was no such thing as ffg powder during the Civil War. There were four different granulations in use in the US military. Musket, Mortar, Cannon and Mammoth. There was also a rifle granulation used for sporting rifles, but I don't have the size figures for it.

I checked my Ordnance Manual to get the sieve hole sizes they used to grade the powder and here are the requirements for musket powder. Note: 2 sieves were required for each powder size. They worked the same as a "go - no go" gauge.

Diameter of holes for musket powder:

No 1 - 0.03 in. No 2 - 0.06 in.

No grains should pass through Sieve No. 1; All grains should pass through Sieve No. 2.

I measured some ffg with dial calipers and found that all the grains measured at least 0.035 in. None measured over 0.055. The average was around 0.04-0.045 in.

I then measured some fffg and it all measured under 0.03, averaging around 0.02- 0.025 in.

In both cases, it's obvious that not every grain is exactly the same as its neighbor, which is why they used this method to grade by size. But the difference is so small we can say each grade is uniform.

Since I was running this little experiment, I measured some fg for the fun of it. It gave me a little problem. The next size, Mortar Powder shouldn't pass through a No. 2 (or 0.06) hole, but should pass through a No. 3 (or 0.01) hole. Most of this powder ranged from 0.06 to 0.085. But, several grains measured around 0.05. This was an old can that had never been used out of. Either the quality control wasn't up to snuff, or some grains had broken up a little. I think we'll always have some powder like that no matter what quality it is and we'll probably never notice it.

So, finally, ffg is about as close as you can get to the "musket powder" of the Civil War as you can get. fffg is a rifle powder. Now, you may have read that passage where a Union soldier said at South Mountain that "we primed our rifles afresh with the fine(r) powder of the rebels". At that point in the War (1862), he may have been referring to imported British ammunition used in the Enfield R-M. I have heard, but have no hard info, that English powder of the day was a finer granulation than ours. I would refer you to David Minshall or tac on that as they know far more than me about English rifles and ammo. Later in the War, the Augusta Powder Works in Georgia made a superior powder for the Confederacy and may have used English patterns for their grading equipment and possibly made a finer powder, though the proof of that depends largely on whether English powder was of a finer granulation. I have a few pages of reference that may provide that answer. I need to look and see.

Anyway, I hope this helps! :thumbsup:

 

[gjkershul]

Thanks for the information and data!
I now have a better idea what the English "J2"
powder may be that is referred to in the response to another of my questions
please see below; I will check with Mr. Mimsall on the English "J2" powder
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Enfield Paper Cartridges



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gjkershul





Handbook for Hythe," (London, 1860 and reprinted by Richmond Publishing Co. Ltd., Surrey, England 1971- SBN 85546 156 X), specifies that Enfield paper cartridges are to be loaded with 2 1/2 drams of powder (68 grains) or less according to the arm they are to be used in. Does anyone know what the British government prescribed powder charge was for the Enfield 1861 Musketoon?
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Greg Kershul
Idaho Civil War Volunteers

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R. McAuley 3014V



Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 191
Location: Savannah, Georgia
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Pattern 1861 Royal Artillery Carbine

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Powder charge for the Pattern 1858 Royal Artillery Carbine was 2 drams, the same charge as for the previous P/53 R.A. Carbine though each of these carbines had a 3-groove 78-inch spiral rather than the 5-groove 48-inch spiral of the P/61 carbine. According to Roads (pp. 103-4), experiments conducted by the Ordnance Select Committee indicated there was a slight improvement in accuracy if the powder charge was increased from 2 to 2 1/2 drams but as the recoil of the weapon was distinctly uncomfortable, rather than reducing the charge to 2 drs, it was decided to adopt the faster spiral of the P/58 Naval rifle with its 5-grooves for use with the new J2 powder. So in essence the P/61 carbine uses the same ammunition as the P/58 Naval Rifle and P/60-61 Army Rifles.

For your reference, below are examples of the three models of the P/53 carbine:

Liege-contracted 1853 Royal Artillery Carbine (1856-dated, Tower) http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=2731

Pattern 1858 Royal Artillery Carbine (1864-dated, Tower) http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=3828

Of particular interest is the rear sight on the Pattern 1858 which featured a stationary post graduated to 100 yards, and two hinged flip-up leaves one graduated to 200, the other to 300 yards and positioned on the barrel just. For the Pattern of 1861, the 300 yard rear sight was replaced by a sight graduated to 600 yards.

Pattern 1861 Royal Artillery Carbine (1869-dated Snyder Conversion, RSAF) http://www.fultonsofbisley.com/z_gallery/antiques/sniderartil1869.jpg http://www.fultonsofbisley.com/z_gallery/antiques/snidercav1871.jpg
_________________
Richard McAuley
37th GA - Franklin Yankee Killers

 

[Tumblernotch]

I just discovered a typo in my reply. In it I said that Mortar powder shouldn't be able to pass through the #3 sieve where the holes are 0.01". That should read 0.10". There was a typo in the Manual. Sorry if this confused anyone who might be reading this thread.

 

[Dphar]

In reading the information on ammunition posted on the Winchester Sutler site-a N-SSA sutler/ vendor- I came across the statement that 3F powder now is the same granulation as 2F powder during the American Civil War 140 years ago. Does anyone on the forum have verifying or other information on this point?

I would have to hit the books to be sure. However, I doubt there was a significant difference in the civilian powder granulations then vs now.
But there were surely variations in manufacture then just as there are now.
Years back I saw a box of original 58 Minie ball cartridges loaded with a powder very much like FG. So I suspect that Musket powder might have been changed with the advent of the Minie ball (FG is very slow in a SB musket with a RB) though again one would need to find screen sizes from say 1810 and 1862 to be sure.

Dan