3f vs 2f

[ebiggs1]

From the post with a similar title, here is a question?

Is 3f less fouling than 2f?

If you shoot 80 grs of 2f and switch to 70 grs of 3f, it probably makes sense one would expect less fouling. Less powder, but does 80 grs of 2f and 80 grs of 3f produce the same or different amounts of fouling?
I am guessing the only difference is the particle size. But what other factors may be at play?

Maybe another test? :grin:

 

[Rifleman1776]

Is 3f less fouling than 2f?

Don't know if that can be answered definitively. I'll just say in my experience that seems to be the case. There are differences in brands as well. And, weather conditions seem to make a difference. Use watcha prefer.

 

[sleeperNY]

It is my understanding that the finer the powder the faster it burns causing more pressure in the breech. That is why you can't use 4f in the rifle, just for priming the pan of a flint lock. I have also been told that it burns cleaner. I have used 3f for the last 40 years in every rifle I have owned. I can't show any data on specifics but that has always been what I was told and have passed on for all these years,

Jim

 

[Robby]

I use a very tight patch/ball combination for all my guns with no wiping between shots at the range. End of the day they clean up the same no matter what powder I'm using. No loss of accuracy, No way to tell.
Robby

 

[Stubert]

If one were to use 80 grains of 2f and 80 grains of 3f, I would think the amout of fouling would be close,(if you weighed it) BUT, the 3f would have smaller particles which may look misleading compared to 2f.

 

[cowpoke1955]

In my .54 GPRs, I have always used FFg. I tried FFFg and they shot well, but FFg gave me tighter groups. I guess my GPRs just prefer FFg.

 

[MJMarkey]

When I had a .45 cal rifle I used 3f as recommended. When I went to .50 cal I went to 2f as recommended although 3f was an option. I found that shooting 2f required more wiping with heavier fouling so now I use only 3f in my .50 cal. I shoot an 80 grain charge with good results.

It is my experience that 2F is heavier fouling than 3F. My personal results, yours may vary.

 

[shmrck1]

Well IMHO weather 2ff or 3fff 80grns or 50 grns
the idea is to get the whole load to burn.It is
what don't burn that causes the cleaning problem,
especially when not wiping between shots.Again
IMHO.
snake-eyes :hmm:

 

[Dphar]

Well IMHO weather 2ff or 3fff 80grns or 50 grns
the idea is to get the whole load to burn.It is
what don't burn that causes the cleaning problem,
especially when not wiping between shots.Again
IMHO.
snake-eyes :hmm:

If it does not burn its ejected. But it would take a LOT of powder to not burn unless if blasting grade powder and/or coarse grained.
A significant amount of the powder charge will be solids after the firearm is fired regardless.
What causes the cleaning problem is problematical.
For example, 120 gr of FFF Swiss fouls horribly in 58 calibers. 105/110 gr shoots clean, for BP. Has to do with the burn temp I am told.
But a 50 will shoot similar charge weight to ball weight ratios with no such problem. There is something about the 58 bore size and how it burns the powder I guess.
Poorly milled powder is a prime cause of excess fouling. The wrong/poorly prepared charcoal is another.
This is why Swiss invariably fouls less.
They take the time to make it right from the best available ingredients.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

From the post with a similar title, here is a question?

Is 3f less fouling than 2f?

If you shoot 80 grs of 2f and switch to 70 grs of 3f, it probably makes sense one would expect less fouling. Less powder, but does 80 grs of 2f and 80 grs of 3f produce the same or different amounts of fouling?
I am guessing the only difference is the particle size. But what other factors may be at play?

Maybe another test? :grin:

Shoot your rifle with each and see which loads easier and shoots best.
The GRANULATION makes the FF burn at about 1/2 the rate of FFF if the powders are from the same maker(this does NOT mean twice the pressure however, BP does not work that way). BP is a surface burning propellant and FFF has about twice the surface area of FF.
The PARTICLE size is determined by how long the powder in milled during manufacture. In general this is the Charcoal and Sulfur. The Saltpeter pretty well dissolves in the water.
If milled as a sporting powder the powder will burn faster for a given granule size than a blasting, musket or rifle "grind" powder will since the charcoal and sulfur is ground finer and the components are mixed must better.
A blasting grind powder with less suitable ingredients might take 50-100% more powder to make the same velocity in a firearm.
If you have access to an old version of Lyman's Blackpowder Handbook look at the velocity levels vs charge weights for the Goex (GOI) vs the C&H. The C&H (a great old name in premium powders) was made in a BLASTING powder plant the same way they made blasting powder, though I think the tried to keep sodium nitrate out of the "propellant" powder and the ballistic performance was POOR when used in firearms.

Dan

 

[Grandpa Ron]

From my shooting at the Nationals in Friendship, IN this week, I can tell you I had more variation in the amount of fouling due to the brand of powder rather than the type of powder.

Most 5 shot matches showed little differences with a well-greased patch. However on the extended matches such as the 16 shot woods walk, some brands of powder had much more fowling build up. Hence more bore swabbing.

In general 2f is a bit dirtier than 3f. However, my 2f vs. 3f decision is based on how tight a group my rifle shoots with each. From the bench at 50 yards, my 54 cal. definitely prefers 3f, about 65 grains or so.

My shotgun prefers 2f but again the brand of powder also determines the amount of fouling.

 

[Dean2]

From my shooting at the Nationals in Friendship, IN this week, I can tell you I had more variation in the amount of fouling due to the brand of powder rather than the type of powder.

Most 5 shot matches showed little differences with a well-greased patch. However on the extended matches such as the 16 shot woods walk, some brands of powder had much more fowling build up. Hence more bore swabbing.

In general 2f is a bit dirtier than 3f. However, my 2f vs. 3f decision is based on how tight a group my rifle shoots with each. From the bench at 50 yards, my 54 cal. definitely prefers 3f, about 65 grains or so.

My shotgun prefers 2f but again the brand of powder also determines the amount of fouling.

Would love to see your rating from that experience of the powders in relative order of which produces more fowling.

 

[duelist1954]

A couple of years ago I was at a seminar at Dixons with an international B-P competition shooter. He told me he only shoots 1Fg in matches. He claims the slower burn gives a more accurate results.

Personally I shoot 3Fg in my .40 and .50 caliber rifles and 2Fg in my .54 rifle and in the 20 ga. Smoothie. Though I do shoot 1Fg in my .577 Snider cartridge rifle.

 

[Dphar]

From my shooting at the Nationals in Friendship, IN this week, I can tell you I had more variation in the amount of fouling due to the brand of powder rather than the type of powder.

Most 5 shot matches showed little differences with a well-greased patch. However on the extended matches such as the 16 shot woods walk, some brands of powder had much more fowling build up. Hence more bore swabbing.

In general 2f is a bit dirtier than 3f. However, my 2f vs. 3f decision is based on how tight a group my rifle shoots with each. From the bench at 50 yards, my 54 cal. definitely prefers 3f, about 65 grains or so.

My shotgun prefers 2f but again the brand of powder also determines the amount of fouling.

Would love to see your rating from that experience of the powders in relative order of which produces more fowling.

You could just by some powder and test it. Then buy different lots of powder and test it again.

In general, cheaper powder, more fouling and less consistency.
There are a whole list of provisos that will modify the results. Some lots of cheap powder may be pretty good, the next lot might be horrible.
However, the high end European powders will generally foul less.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

A couple of years ago I was at a seminar at Dixons with an international B-P competition shooter. He told me he only shoots 1Fg in matches. He claims the slower burn gives a more accurate results.

Personally I shoot 3Fg in my .40 and .50 caliber rifles and 2Fg in my .54 rifle and in the 20 ga. Smoothie. Though I do shoot 1Fg in my .577 Snider cartridge rifle.

What class does he shoot in. "International BP competition shooter" covers a lot of territory from matchlock to longrange ML to BPCR.

Shooting FG in most flintlocks would be a revelation to most people. I tried it on a Brown Bess Musketoon about 30 odd years ago. I did not shoot it much (1-2 shots) because with similar charge weights velocity was REALLY low compared to FF of FFF.
I have seen original 58 Rifle Musket cartridges that were loaded with a powder very much like FG Goex. But a 500 gr minie is almost twice the weight of a 58 rb and Rifle Muskets had a MV just under 1000 from all reports.
Dan

 

[duelist1954]

All I know is that he was shooting an original flintlock rifle. The seminar was on tuning flintlocks.

I was more impressed by him taking a bare flintlock, priming the pan, closing the frizzen and covering the open back of the pan with his thumb. He then plunged the lock into a bucket of water, counted to 10, pulled it out, tripped the sear and the priming fired.

But his comments of using 1Fg did stick in my head.

 

[Dphar]

All I know is that he was shooting an original flintlock rifle. The seminar was on tuning flintlocks.

I was more impressed by him taking a bare flintlock, priming the pan, closing the frizzen and covering the open back of the pan with his thumb. He then plunged the lock into a bucket of water, counted to 10, pulled it out, tripped the sear and the priming fired.

But his comments of using 1Fg did stick in my head.

Interesting. I know some of the international shooters shoot originals. Shooting an original I feel is unwise. But its his gun.
If it shoots FG more power to it. But rifle matches are not hunting either.
It takes a very good lock to fire with a film of water on the frizzen and flint.
I have a Manton copy (from actual Manton castings) that is very water tight, but put it in water as you describe and the priming will remain dry but it won't fire since the frizzen is wet it seems to put out or cool the sparks. And its a good sparker with stiff springs and a 1095 frizzen face. About as reliable as I have. My Swivel breech is a great sparker too but getting the lock work into a bucket would be probablematical :grin:
:hmm:
I could try it again with a French flint. They do spark better than the Brandon flints.
:hmm: Could have been before I faced the frizzen, it was a poor sparker as cast.
Might have to try it again after reading this just for giggles.

Dan

 

[Grandpa Ron]

I am back from the Nationals and here is a follow up.

I had the greatest difficulty during the International Smoothbore match which is 13 shots in 30 minutes, so there is little time to dally.

It is basically a load, shoot, load, shoot, while pacing yourself to not rush the shot. Typically I can finish in 21 to 25 minutes with a few extra minutes to spare for a flint changes etc.

I shoot a 54 cal. Trade gun, my load is 75 grns of 3f and patches soaked in a Bore Butter and Crisco combination. These are very greasy patches. I clean the bore between matches.

I started with 3f GOEX and had little difficulty.

I switched to 3f KIK which I had purchased because it was supposed to be a bit more potent. By the 7th shot I was having trouble seating the ball because of the fouling; the last three shots required driving the ball down by pounding with an aluminum ram rod.

Finally I tried some 3F Swiss, as it is supposed to be clean burning and like the GOEX I had no difficulties and a bit less fowling.

I will admit that these are unusual circumstances as most matches are only five shot with time to swab between shots. However had I been on the 16 shot woods walk match with the KIK I definitely would have had to stop to swab a couple of time along the course.

My ranking of the powders are Swiss, GOEX and then the KIK. Not surprising they also rank most expensive to least expensive.

As mentioned, your milage may vary and every gun had it own likes and dis-likes.

 

[rduncan]

Sort of boils down to what your rifle likes best. Smaller bore ones will probably shoot better with finer granulation powder. Quantity is something you have to experiment with but my experience has been that 60 grains of either grade seems to be the best load for my .50 flintlock with mink oil lube.

Be nice if you could say that one size fits all, but in this sport you're kind of left to work out what's best for your rifle. But that's half the fun of it...

 

[Grandpa Ron]

It definitely comes down to the rifle and what it likes, which in part include your loading technique.

For years I have shot my 54 cal. longrifle with 65 grns of 3f and at times 2f. It has a one in 66” twist and I use a tight fitting spit patch.

Since time was not an issue and my gear is spread over a loading bench I would run a damp patch or two down between shots to minimize any fouling issues.

However, on a woods walk things are a bit different. When loading from the pouch I minimize my gear. I use a thinner well greased patch so I can seat the ball easier with the smack of a knife handle and push it down the barrel without much effort. If the fouling does start to build up, I run a spit patch down.

These are of course two completely different games. One group is trying to squeak out every last bit of accuracy while the others are trying to demonstrate practical field loading and hunting techniques.

Fortunately I like both but they point out that one has to get to know your rifle’s likes a dislikes. This means you have to shoot a lot and as mentioned; that is where real fun is.