44cal Cap & Ball Revolver

[KOrdway]

I inherited a .44cal Cap & Ball Revolver recently and had some questions. Based on marking it appears to be an Italian made Navy revolver made in 1969. Proof House Gardone & Broscia. I had it worked on by a gunsmith so it is back in working order. Since black powder is so hard to get, I want to used Pyrodex Pellets, but range officer at range I go to said he thought that might be to powerful. Does that sound right? Also, if I go to black powder, how do I know how many grains to use? Lastly, where could I find out if percussion caps needed are #10 or #11? Thanks in advance, pictures attached.

 

[rafterob]

The italian revolvers usually take #10 caps. Black powder load would be around 15 grains. But you can fill the cylinder loosely and compress the ball in for a full load. I have not seen, but heard there are pyrodex pellets for pistols, if made for the .36, the load would not be too powerful.

 

[Rifleman1776]

What rafterrob said is on point. Pyrodex is about on a par with black powder. But it is hard to ignite. Find some real black powder and enjoy. I suggest you use FFFg (3Fg).

 

[SmokepoleSam]

It's a brass frame so don't load more than 18-20 grns or you will shoot the frame loose eventually. Pellets are much more expensive than loose powder, if you can't get blackpowder than use loose pyrodex or triple7. Welcome and enjoy shooting it.

 

[Justin.44]

Those pellets are too powerful for a brass frame (30 grains) I'm sure you could put a few of them through without any problems but I wouldn't do it with any regularity if you want to keep it shooting good. 18 to 22 grains works well in mine and as far as caps go you will probably just have to try both #10 and #11 and see which work best. If the #11 are a little big you can pinch them a little before you put them on and they should be fine.

 

[BullRunBear]

First, welcome to the Forum. There is a lot of great information here. I had an Italian made brass frame 44 caliber for years. I used Pyrodex P powder, #10 caps and kept the loads at 18 to 20 grains and the gun stayed tight with no sign of stretching. I gave it to a nephew to help him get started with black powder shooting and it is still working fine.

Jeff

 

[Treestalker]

Brass framed revolvers in .44 caliber are kind of an anachronism in a different sense, it didn't exist back in the day. Loading a brass frame revolver for battle as a Confederate soldier did will of course wear it out much quicker than a lighter load. I shoot 22-25gr 3f in all my brass .44's. No problem but I don't shoot a lot like a match shooter. Older guns are said to be made of softer brass than newer ones, but I don't know if that is valid. Good luck, you have a nice revolver.

 

[FishDFly]

First, welcome to the Forum. There is a lot of great information here. I had an Italian made brass frame 44 caliber for years. I used Pyrodex P powder, #10 caps and kept the loads at 18 to 20 grains and the gun stayed tight with no sign of stretching. I gave it to a nephew to help him get started with black powder shooting and it is still working fine.

Jeff

Follow the above, it is accurate advice.

Caps, you just have to hunt them, they are hard to find now and it may get worse. Try a Cabela's or Bass Pro if you have one close or order it and the Pyrodex P. Should not have to pay the Hazmat fee on Prodex.

 

[sourdough]

Your revolver is an Italian manufacture by GLB, an obscure 1960's factory when every small Northern Italian manufacturer was trying to cash in on the American Centennial craze. Yours was manufactured in 1969 (XXV), as you stated. It is in no way authentic insofar as original ACW period revolvers, as Treestalker noted, but there is a growing fraternity of folks who are interested in repros manufactured from ~1959 to the present day. It is a whole new collector mentality devoted to the myriad of all manufacturers of such revolvers, whether Italian or Belgian (and that is a whole nother story). Don't think your revolver is just another somewhat worthless gun: it is not.

Take a look here and see what you think. We don't think of them as shooters; rather, they are collector pieces. I am a mod on this forum.

https://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php


Regards,

Jim

 

[KOrdway]

Wow, terrific feedback and welcoming group. I appreciate all the insight and will follow it. Very cool gun and looking forward to shooting it!

 

[bang]

Some people I shoot with have experimented with the plastic caps for toy guns. They worked on both rifle and pistols with no I'll effects. Not the preferred but good in a pinch.

 

[KOrdway]

I did find some black powder that I ordered so will use that around 18-20grains per all the advise. Should I return these Pyrodex Pistol Pellets For Cap and Ball Revolver .44 and .45 caliber because they are 30 grain equivalent? Pic attached.

 

[TFoley]

Your revolver was made in Gardone Val Trompia, a city in the province of Brescia Northern Italy that has been famous for quality steel production since the 14th century. The proof house is also located in Gardone Val Trompia, often abbreviated to just Gardone, but not to be confused with the town on the banks of Lake Garda.

 

[sourdough]

KOrdway:

I apologize for the short reply earlier about your revolver. I am 68 and my "Total Recall" is far from total these days. I did some digging so as to give you an idea about the extent to which GLB was in involved in the then gun trade. I have a friend on a French site who speaks and posts in excellent American English, but the French terminology for various revolver parts differs significantly from the US terminology: cannon is barrel, barrel is cylinder, carcass is frame, clavette is backstrap, dog is hammer, and so on. I found a thread that my friend posted in 2016 concerning guns manufactured by GLB. I have edited it to include sections pertinent to your interest, and have substituted US terms for the French terms.

I bolded the part that applies to your revolver, FYI.

Please be reminded that parts are not available for this revolver. Your only source would be either modern Uberti or Pietta parts (I use VTI as a parts source). Having said that, Uberti and Pietta have utilized CNC machining for revolver production since ~2002, and prior production revolvers for both utilized sub-contracted parts from those very same obscure Northern Italian manufacturers, so there is a wide variation in tolerances and even the factories at the time hand-fitted these parts to every revolver that came off the assembly line. The parts that will wear/break are the internals: hand/spring, bolt, trigger/bolt spring, and the bolt cam on the side of the hammer. As an aside, I scored a Pietta 1851 Navy (AZ/1990) 4-screw steel frame CFS (cut for stock) for a "nice" price a year ago. When it arrived it did not function, had not been cleaned in years, and some Bubba had modified the bolt head. I cleaned it all up and 6 months later finally found a previously owned bolt on Ebay and it now works flawlessly. I really lucked out as a modern Pietta CNC bolt I had on hand was nowhere near close to fitting, concerning the bolt-hole location and the length of the bolt legs.

I digress. I hope the following info is helpful to you.

Regards,

Jim

Since I've been looking for information about one of the most mysterious replica manufacturers, the one whose brand brings together three letters in one logo: I've finally collected some data that I think is time to share.

First, the identification of this manufacturer. No weapon bears his full name. Therefore, it is essential to cross-reference objective sources in order to formulate a result. Three concurring sources allow me to give (or confirm) this identification:

- 1- the Armi site of Edoardo Mori, which, in its encyclopedia of weapons and manufacturers lists as the only italian manufacturer name corresponding to these initials Giacosa Luciano,
- 2- the book "Pistols of the World" by Ian V. Hogg and John Walter published by Krause Publications, which mentions Luciano Giacosa and Co.
- 3- the book "Cartridges And Firearm Identification" by Robert E. Walker published by CRC Press, which devotes a page to FIE (Firearms Import and Export) in which is specified:

One Italian gunsmith whose name corresponds to the initials, and who also supplied weapons to the two successive American importers who distributed massively. The correspondence can reasonably be found. Luciano Giacosa, a gunsmith in Brescia, can therefore be identified with the owner of the GLB logo.

Second, what types of weapons did it produce? According to the evidence gathered, he made both cartridge weapons and black powder replicas.

Cartridge Weapons
On the one hand, the article in the book "Pistols of the World" already quoted clearly indicates that Giacosa manufactured closed frame revolvers of .32 caliber and .38 caliber for the importer EIG (Saul Eig, Sarasota FL). Evidence of this can be found on the Internet, with images such as those found on this site: Eig Italian revolver - The Firing Line Forums, which show a revolver made in 1965, a copy of a Smith and Wesson bearing the on the frame the mark "EIG" and on the bottom of the backstrap the "GLB" logo.

These two types are the only ones for which it can be said with certainty that Giacosa made them. Insofar as black powder replicas, as evidenced by Dr. Jim Davis's article "Schneider and Glassick - The "Accidental " Replica Revolver" published on his website RPRCA (Replica Percussion Revolver Collector Association, which no longer exists due to the passing of Davis in September 2019), Giacosa provided EIG with replicas of Schneider and Glassick as early as 1963. This model has been available in two forms: a simple, no-frills model, and a "luxury" model, also as early as 1963, with engravings on all metal parts (load lever excepted).

After the demise of EIG, Giacosa continued to supply its successor, FIE (Firearms Import Export), until 1971, and then gave way to Esterina Riva.

With the arrival of FIE on the market, at least four other models of replica handguns have appeared, all historically incorrect, but inexpensive to produce and therefore for sale to American shooters: an 1848 Pocket Model .31 with brass frame and squareback trigger guard with two barrel lengths, and a brass frame 1851 Schneider and Glassick with naval battle engraving on the cylinder .44 caliber, a Remington 1858 Army .44 with a brass frame, and a Remington 1858 Navy .36 with brass frame. For FIE as well, but at a higher cost, GLB has also produced a fully nickeled S&G.

Until 1968, U.S. law did not require manufacturers to trademark weapons. This is why a number of revolvers produced by Giacosa bear only the importer's trademark. In this case, for the S&G, EIG NAVY on the barrel and the EIG logo in a pair of circles on the backstrap heel. The import of weapons, hitherto very unregulated, saw its rules tightened with the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968, which quickly led to the collapse of companies such as EIG Cutlery. The activity was taken over by FIE, which introduced even cheaper but lower quality weapons, which allowed it to last until the early 1990s.

 

[Eutycus]

I'm waiting for some expert to tell you how to determine if you should use .451 or .454 lead balls.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I did find some black powder that I ordered so will use that around 18-20grains per all the advise. Should I return these Pyrodex Pistol Pellets For Cap and Ball Revolver .44 and .45 caliber because they are 30 grain equivalent? Pic attached.

Yes indeed, black powder is preferable to any black powder substitute and most definitely preferable to the pellets at any grain equivalent.

I would return those Pyrodex pellets for Pyrodex P powder (if Pyrodex is the only black powder substitute available) and a volumetric powder measure. The pellets are hard to ignite and offer no flexibility to adjust the charge. I think a load 0f 22 to25 grains volume in your revolver is a reasonable starting point.

 

[oldhunter1954]

As far as getting Real Black Powder if there are any Black Powder groups in your area they might be able to help. Where I live the local group buys a large quantity of GOEX and the cost is split up between everyone that is interested. We had a guy show up a few months ago with a 44 army he just purchased. As I also have a 44 we set him up with #10 caps, balls and powder so he could shoot it several times.

 

[wb78963]

Powder Inc. Jack's powder keg,and Graf and Sons are sources of real Black Gunpowder. Use FFFg and stay away from that "P" stuff. rust in a bottle that burns.
Welcome to the always fasinationg, sometimes frustrating world of Black Gunpowder shooting.
Stay safe
bunk

 

[KOrdway]

KOrdway:

I apologize for the short reply earlier about your revolver. I am 68 and my "Total Recall" is far from total these days. I did some digging so as to give you an idea about the extent to which GLB was in involved in the then gun trade. I have a friend on a French site who speaks and posts in excellent American English, but the French terminology for various revolver parts differs significantly from the US terminology: cannon is barrel, barrel is cylinder, carcass is frame, clavette is backstrap, dog is hammer, and so on. I found a thread that my friend posted in 2016 concerning guns manufactured by GLB. I have edited it to include sections pertinent to your interest, and have substituted US terms for the French terms.

I bolded the part that applies to your revolver, FYI.

Please be reminded that parts are not available for this revolver. Your only source would be either modern Uberti or Pietta parts (I use VTI as a parts source). Having said that, Uberti and Pietta have utilized CNC machining for revolver production since ~2002, and prior production revolvers for both utilized sub-contracted parts from those very same obscure Northern Italian manufacturers, so there is a wide variation in tolerances and even the factories at the time hand-fitted these parts to every revolver that came off the assembly line. The parts that will wear/break are the internals: hand/spring, bolt, trigger/bolt spring, and the bolt cam on the side of the hammer. As an aside, I scored a Pietta 1851 Navy (AZ/1990) 4-screw steel frame CFS (cut for stock) for a "nice" price a year ago. When it arrived it did not function, had not been cleaned in years, and some Bubba had modified the bolt head. I cleaned it all up and 6 months later finally found a previously owned bolt on Ebay and it now works flawlessly. I really lucked out as a modern Pietta CNC bolt I had on hand was nowhere near close to fitting, concerning the bolt-hole location and the length of the bolt legs.

I digress. I hope the following info is helpful to you.

Regards,

Jim

Since I've been looking for information about one of the most mysterious replica manufacturers, the one whose brand brings together three letters in one logo: I've finally collected some data that I think is time to share.

First, the identification of this manufacturer. No weapon bears his full name. Therefore, it is essential to cross-reference objective sources in order to formulate a result. Three concurring sources allow me to give (or confirm) this identification:

- 1- the Armi site of Edoardo Mori, which, in its encyclopedia of weapons and manufacturers lists as the only italian manufacturer name corresponding to these initials Giacosa Luciano,
- 2- the book "Pistols of the World" by Ian V. Hogg and John Walter published by Krause Publications, which mentions Luciano Giacosa and Co.
- 3- the book "Cartridges And Firearm Identification" by Robert E. Walker published by CRC Press, which devotes a page to FIE (Firearms Import and Export) in which is specified:

One Italian gunsmith whose name corresponds to the initials, and who also supplied weapons to the two successive American importers who distributed massively. The correspondence can reasonably be found. Luciano Giacosa, a gunsmith in Brescia, can therefore be identified with the owner of the GLB logo.

Second, what types of weapons did it produce? According to the evidence gathered, he made both cartridge weapons and black powder replicas.

Cartridge Weapons
On the one hand, the article in the book "Pistols of the World" already quoted clearly indicates that Giacosa manufactured closed frame revolvers of .32 caliber and .38 caliber for the importer EIG (Saul Eig, Sarasota FL). Evidence of this can be found on the Internet, with images such as those found on this site: Eig Italian revolver - The Firing Line Forums, which show a revolver made in 1965, a copy of a Smith and Wesson bearing the on the frame the mark "EIG" and on the bottom of the backstrap the "GLB" logo.

These two types are the only ones for which it can be said with certainty that Giacosa made them. Insofar as black powder replicas, as evidenced by Dr. Jim Davis's article "Schneider and Glassick - The "Accidental " Replica Revolver" published on his website RPRCA (Replica Percussion Revolver Collector Association, which no longer exists due to the passing of Davis in September 2019), Giacosa provided EIG with replicas of Schneider and Glassick as early as 1963. This model has been available in two forms: a simple, no-frills model, and a "luxury" model, also as early as 1963, with engravings on all metal parts (load lever excepted).

After the demise of EIG, Giacosa continued to supply its successor, FIE (Firearms Import Export), until 1971, and then gave way to Esterina Riva.

With the arrival of FIE on the market, at least four other models of replica handguns have appeared, all historically incorrect, but inexpensive to produce and therefore for sale to American shooters: an 1848 Pocket Model .31 with brass frame and squareback trigger guard with two barrel lengths, and a brass frame 1851 Schneider and Glassick with naval battle engraving on the cylinder .44 caliber, a Remington 1858 Army .44 with a brass frame, and a Remington 1858 Navy .36 with brass frame. For FIE as well, but at a higher cost, GLB has also produced a fully nickeled S&G.

Until 1968, U.S. law did not require manufacturers to trademark weapons. This is why a number of revolvers produced by Giacosa bear only the importer's trademark. In this case, for the S&G, EIG NAVY on the barrel and the EIG logo in a pair of circles on the backstrap heel. The import of weapons, hitherto very unregulated, saw its rules tightened with the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968, which quickly led to the collapse of companies such as EIG Cutlery. The activity was taken over by FIE, which introduced even cheaper but lower quality weapons, which allowed it to last until the early 1990s.

Wow - you are quite the source of information. I appreciate all the insight!

 

[wb78963]

I'm waiting for some expert to tell you how to determine if you should use .451 or .454 lead balls.

I am not an expert, but do have a modest amount of experience. Most of my revolvers are Colt type open top revolvers made by Pietta. I shoot .451" balls hand cast in a lee mold. Also some .451" balls bought from Track of the Wolf.
The test is to remove a cone, lightly grease that chamber and push a ball about to where it would be when loading.
With a SOFT punch made of brass, wood, or aluminum push the ball out and look at the sealing band on the ball.
Over the past two years I have shot close to a thousand rounds with .451" balls with no problem. If you are cutting a fine shaving of lead off the ball when loading you are golden.
For what it is worth.
Respectfully
Bunk