45 and deer

[BrownBear]

A little over 20 years ago, we learned of a container full of beef and pork sides that had been condemned because the refrigeration failed during shipping up here. We contacted the shipper and got access to it with the promise that we'd dispose of it and clean the container when we were done.

Plugged the refrigeration back in and went to work setting up and conducting shooting tests. For the next week half a dozen of us shot all sorts of guns at all sorts of ranges and angles. It's danged hard work to stick holes into a weighed 40,000 pounds of meat, I can tell you. We all needed slings by the time we were through.

We learned a whale of a lot about what bullets do to refrigerated pork and beef. We didn't learn sickum about what the bullets do on game.

Any, and I mean any conclusions about game drawn from our shooting would be pure, blue sky speculation. Come to think of it, that would fit this discussion real well, wouldn't it! :rotf:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't see where anyone, particular me, ever claimed that a penetration test medium simulates living flesh and bone. As you say, comparison testing only shows you what two different balls or bullets or loads do in that test medium.

My late friend, Jim Gabbard did penetration testing for years- more than 50, and had a substantial collection of spent balls and bullets, including balls and bullets he recovered from animals he killed through the years. If you could get him to show his collection, he would describe his "test medium", and the distance from the muzzle to the medium, and the load and bullet used. Then he would go through his other box and find one of the slugs he pulled out of animals, that was similar in condition, and tell you the distance from the muzzle to the animal when the shot was fired, the load used, etc.

Like you, both Jim and I have looked at dozens of wound channels- use to drive my hunting companions nuts when I insisted on being allowed to cut through the internal organs, including the stomach and intestines to follow those paths--- to find out how a particular ball or bullet performed- whether I fired the shot, or it was something fired by another hunter. I found out pretty early as a hunter that it was not hard to get other hunters to let me field dress their game for them.

I also checked in hundreds of deer as a county deer checker, and recorded data on location and size of both entrance and exit wounds. Since the deer were brought in already field dressed, the internals were gone, and not available for examination. Since i don't live in the wonderful state of Alaska, nor do I have anywhere the hunting opportunities that are available there and on the island, I would not dare to suggest my personal experience is a extensive as yours, BB.

However, there is a point where you figure out that when you shoot a deer or other animal with a given round, in a given location, you are no longer surprised at what you find. Jim told me that too. That is why he was comfortable pulling a spent test medium bullet or ball out of his collection and telling anyone, this is what you can expect if you shoot this caliber, at this MV, at an animal at this range, with this ball/bullet. I suspect that you can do the same, provided you had such a collection, BB. :v

 

[roundball]

We learned a whale of a lot about what bullets do to refrigerated pork and beef. We didn't learn sickum about what the bullets do on game.

Any, and I mean any conclusions about game drawn from our shooting would be pure, blue sky speculation. Come to think of it, that would fit this discussion real well, wouldn't it! :rotf:

Exactly...people interested in such real information should approach it something like:

"I'm switching to PRBs for eastern Whitetails, average weight 125lbs, typical shots in the 50-75 yard range...what caliber & powder charge do you guys use who hunt like that??"

OR...

"I'm going after Mule deer in Colorado with a PRB, average weight 175lbs, typical shot is 100-125yd range...what caliber & powder charge do you guys who hunt like that use??"

You'll get several serious replies from people who have actualy done it successfully, there will be an obvious trend to the majority of the answers, should be the end of the story.

But if the requester ignores the common recommendations based on actual hands on experience and starts spouting theory about "air space penetration test contraptions", just tell him to be sure to take the contraption along to show the mule deer so they'll know they screwed up and should have fallen down.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Have we gotten off topic? Is the 45 caliber big enough for whitetail deer? When I got my TC 45 caliber Hawken, it was just going to be a target rifle. However the more I shoot it the more I like it. Then I keep thinking about taking it to the woods. I have friends who use 45's and have not had any problems, so I guess I know the answer. Would appreciate some input from those who have some hands on time in the woods with PRB and 45's. Distance of shot(s), load & etc. I've shot a lot of deer with ML but with nothing under 50 caliber. I know how to get close as I have taken over 100 big game animals with bow & arrow.

 

[hanshi]

I've killed deer with 65 grns in a .45 at up to 75 yards. Our regs say at least 50 grns so I'd have to say an unqualified YES to your question.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I've killed deer with 65 grns in a .45 at up to 75 yards. Our regs say at least 50 grns so I'd have to say an unqualified YES to your question.

So based on what you are saying the 70 grains of T7 2F which my 45 TC seems to like is enough? I still plan to try some heavier loads, but have not got around to trying it yet.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I've killed deer with 65 grns in a .45 at up to 75 yards. Our regs say at least 50 grns so I'd have to say an unqualified YES to your question.

So based on what you are saying the 70 grains of T7 2F which my 45 TC seems to like is enough? I still plan to try some heavier loads, but have not got around to trying it yet.

 

[longrifle346]

Can't speak for your Hawken but I started out in BP years ago with an old CVA Kentucky kit in 45, used it for several years as my primary shooter during all gun seasons. Barrel's a few inches longer but she dropped quite a few deer at ranges out to 75 yards with 70 grains behind a patched 440 and don't remember having to do alot of trailing.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Longrifle,
Kind of what I have been hearing from others. This rifle sure seems to like the 70 grains of T7 2F. Still want to play with some other loads and see what happens. When I look at a .440 ball, it just seems kind of small.