.45 investarms flintlock not igniting charge after 7 +shots

[Coyotelar]

Hey everyone, I've not actually used this forum for muzzleloader answers for quite a while...I thought it was dead, but noticed new content so I joined. Just got an investarms .45 cal Hawken carbine and it shoots fine until the 6-7th shot it seems. I swab the barrel every 2-3 shots,and pick the touchhole, rap the side when loading loose 3f schutzen, seems to have spark. Seems to not fire after a bit. Im very new to flinters , I do have a Pedersoli Indian trade gun that will fire every time,but have only put mabey 100 rounds thru it. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong on the hawken would be greatly appreciated

 

[Kansas Jake]

You aren’t really doing anything wrong. The investarms have the dreaded “patent” breech system with an under bore size ante chamber. They tend to be hard to clean and are especially subject to fouling in a flintlock. There have been several recent threads on the issue. I suspect in the old days (1970s) when most flint shooters blew down the barrel after a shot it was less of an issue.

 

[Kansas Jake]

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/traditions-pennsylvania-flintlock-issues.149112/page-2
Check out this thread.

 

[SDSmlf]

Just got an investarms .45 cal Hawken carbine and it shoots fine until the 6-7th shot it seems. I swab the barrel every 2-3 shots,and pick the touchhole, rap the side when loading loose 3f schutzen, seems to have spark. Seems to not fire after a bit.

Sounds like your swabbing is pushing crud down into your chambered breech where your full size jag can’t reach when you swab. As an experiment, try using a wet patch with your roundball and see how it loads and shoots WITHOUT swabbing. And while Schutzen blackpowder works, I find it dirtier that other powders, and that may be contributing to the issue.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

Ah yes, the glorious patent breech.

I would have a piece of piano wire or something long enough to reach all the way though the touch hole in to the main charge chamber to make sure its a clear path.

I might also go to a .40 patch jag with the thought of it being smaller and passing the fouling on the in stroke, but the jag hooking the patch and pulling the fouling out with it on the out stroke. This might help with pushing the fouling down and it falling in breech powder chamber.

Also as SDS said, Shutzen is a 'dirtier buring' powder that to me seems to leave more particles in the bore, but in these times, I understand using whatever you can get your hands on.

Touch hole diameter could also be a variable, but in your case it sure sounds fouling related.

 

[Coyotelar]

Sounds like your swabbing is pushing crud down into your chambered breech where your full size jag can’t reach when you swab. As an experiment, try using a wet patch with your roundball and see how it loads and shoots WITHOUT swabbing. And while Schutzen blackpowder works, I find it dirtier that other powders, and that may be contributing to the issue.

I do have some Swiss 3f , altho I've never used it yet. (It's only the last 6 months I've ever had real black powder actually.) I think Swiss is a bit hotter , but mabey I would work a bit better?

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

and definitely find a brush that goes all the way in the patent breech when cleaning...that is most important.

 

[deerstalkert]

i have one that acts as yours does. i found if i put a vent pick into the vent hole and bottom it out on the far side of the chamber, then load my charge, including patched ball, it will fire every time. forget to do this and it stutters.

 

[Coyotelar]

i have one that acts as yours does. i found if i put a vent pick into the vent hole and bottom it out on the far side of the chamber, then load my charge, including patched ball, it will fire every time. forget to do this and it stutters.

Ahhh....ok I'll give that a try,thanks!

 

[deerstalkert]

just one of a multitude of things that we try. some work others don't.
best shooting!!

 

[Big Bear Joe]

You aren’t really doing anything wrong. The investarms have the dreaded “patent” breech system with an under bore size ante chamber. They tend to be hard to clean and are especially subject to fouling in a flintlock. There have been several recent threads on the issue. I suspect in the old days (1970s) when most flint shooters blew down the barrel after a shot it was less of an issue.

Interesting you mention blowing down the barrel between shots. I have a Lyman Trade Rifle by Investarms that I purchased new about six years ago. I've not had any trouble at all with cleaning. Misfires have always been due to a dull flint. I usually get 20 to 25 shots per flint and then need a new one. But anyhow, I've been blowing down the barrel for years because I like to see smoke come out the flash hole to make sure it's open. So a few months ago another shooter said I should break the habit of blowing down the barrel as it's unsafe. OK, maybe it could be unsafe, so last shoot I stopped blowing down the barrel. And that's when I started having a little more difficult time ramming patched balls down between shots. I'm back to blowing down the barrel between shots.

 

[springfield art]

Interesting you mention blowing down the barrel between shots. I have a Lyman Trade Rifle by Investarms that I purchased new about six years ago. I've not had any trouble at all with cleaning. Misfires have always been due to a dull flint. I usually get 20 to 25 shots per flint and then need a new one. But anyhow, I've been blowing down the barrel for years because I like to see smoke come out the flash hole to make sure it's open. So a few months ago another shooter said I should break the habit of blowing down the barrel as it's unsafe. OK, maybe it could be unsafe, so last shoot I stopped blowing down the barrel. And that's when I started having a little more difficult time ramming patched balls down between shots. I'm back to blowing down the barrel between shots.

If you've just fired a shot, I don't see where it's all that unsafe to blow down the barrel! I know it looks bad, but the powder's just gone off, the ball's gone, theoretically, so it shouldn't be a problem. Our modern safety rules decry the practice, and I wouldn't tell anyone to do it, but still....

 

[Big Bear Joe]

If you've just fired a shot, I don't see where it's all that unsafe to blow down the barrel! I know it looks bad, but the powder's just gone off, the ball's gone, theoretically, so it shouldn't be a problem. Our modern safety rules decry the practice, and I wouldn't tell anyone to do it, but still....

totally agree with you on that

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

To satisfy the safety guys and yourself, get a piece of 1/4" ID flexible plastic pipe. Cup it in the web of your thumb/palm and stick it in the barrel with your cupped hand covering the muzzle, and blow into the barrel through the pipe. Keeps your head out of the way.

 

[Greenjoytj]

My GPR will fail to fire after ~7 shots if I forget to wipe clean the frizzen face.
Microfiber an high proof alcohol as the cleaning media.
I think smoke acts like a lube preventing decent spark production.

A 36 caliber bronze bore will clean the narrow chambered breach area, spin the brush.

Buy a long wood dowel barrel length plus space for gripping.
Cut the whittled end down the center to create a tight slot about 2” long.
Whittle down on end to a loose fit into the narrow chambered breach.
The diameter will need adjustments.
Jam the edge of a square patch into the slot, leave a little over hang and wrap the patch around the dowel.
Spin the dowel as you slide it down keep spinning and pushing till the wraped patch enters the narrow chambered breach.
Clean and dry the same way.

This is how I clean the breach area on my GPR. I have even spun the bronze brush and rod with a cordless drill, not too fast and use a muzzle rod guide.

 

[TreeMan]

Hey everyone, I've not actually used this forum for muzzleloader answers for quite a while...I thought it was dead, but noticed new content so I joined. Just got an investarms .45 cal Hawken carbine and it shoots fine until the 6-7th shot it seems. I swab the barrel every 2-3 shots,and pick the touchhole, rap the side when loading loose 3f schutzen, seems to have spark. Seems to not fire after a bit. Im very new to flinters , I do have a Pedersoli Indian trade gun that will fire every time,but have only put mabey 100 rounds thru it. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong on the hawken would be greatly appreciated

Is the powder in the pan igniting or is it igniting and not setting off the charge in the barrel? Everyone seems to be giving you advice about picking your touch hole and similar tricks but you state “it seems to have spark”. That would lead me to believe your pan powder is not igniting. If so wipe your frizzen and knap your flint or install a new flint.

 

[kyron4]

I have found if I trickle the first 5 to 10 grains of powder, then wrap the butt and tap the stock to settle in the patent breech then dump the rest of the charge. Seems to bottleneck in the little hole if I dump all the powder at once.

 

[cal.43]

Having a Mavi-Hawken in Flintlock is like the Investarm, I never swap between the shoots. If you swap and the patch is only a little to wet, all the fouling will be in the breech and then you got your troubles.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Hey everyone, I've not actually used this forum for muzzleloader answers for quite a while...I thought it was dead, but noticed new content so I joined. Just got an investarms .45 cal Hawken carbine and it shoots fine until the 6-7th shot it seems. I swab the barrel every 2-3 shots,and pick the touchhole, rap the side when loading loose 3f schutzen, seems to have spark. Seems to not fire after a bit. Im very new to flinters , I do have a Pedersoli Indian trade gun that will fire every time,but have only put mabey 100 rounds thru it. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong on the hawken would be greatly appreciated

"Seems to have spark" implies to me that you are having a flash in the pan and ignition of the main charge failures.

Rifles such as yours have a chambered breech. The breech plug includes a chamber that is between the flash channel and the powder. Makes for ease of manufacture and control of inventory as only one type of threaded barrel is needed for all calibers and for flint or percussion ignition. However, the reduced diameter of the entry to the chamber is a trap that can create a bridge of fouling that makes a block between the flash channel and the powder. This is especially true when we wipe the barrel between shots to remove fouling from the grooves and with a tight jag and patch fouling is pushed into the chambered breech. Picking the touch hole won't dislodge that fouling block. A wipe with a sub caliber brush and a touch hole pick is required or you refrain from running the wiping patch to the mouth of the chamber.

Some good advice has already been provided. What is your goal when shooting this rifle? Very tight groups for shooting targets at the range? Hunting accuracy and reliability?

I would turn down the jag that is used at the range, so the dampened patch passes over the fouling then bunches up to remove the fouling from the grooves. Unless you are hunting squirrels, which is unlikely with a 45 caliber rifle, I wouldn't plan to wipe between shots as usually only two shots would be required.

 

[sabalo1lives]

My GPR will fail to fire after ~7 shots if I forget to wipe clean the frizzen face.
Microfiber an high proof alcohol as the cleaning media.
I think smoke acts like a lube preventing decent spark production.

A 36 caliber bronze bore will clean the narrow chambered breach area, spin the brush.

Buy a long wood dowel barrel length plus space for gripping.
Cut the whittled end down the center to create a tight slot about 2” long.
Whittle down on end to a loose fit into the narrow chambered breach.
The diameter will need adjustments.
Jam the edge of a square patch into the slot, leave a little over hang and wrap the patch around the dowel.
Spin the dowel as you slide it down keep spinning and pushing till the wraped patch enters the narrow chambered breach.
Clean and dry the same way.

This is how I clean the breach area on my GPR. I have even spun the bronze brush and rod with a cordless drill, not too fast and use a muzzle rod guide.

Thank you for sharing your troubles. Mine flash pan ignites every time 4th to 5th shot will not fire properly. Some much manure down at bottom of barrel that I now run a rifle brush down it; swab profusely with hoppes 9 and run a drying swab till dry and clean and it works. I also have had to resort to pyrodex as a lack of steady black powder was available. Gun was brand new and I was over excitement to shoot it and take it after hogs !!! First hog was on the ground; never got it to fire properly again. Thoroughly cleaned when at home. It is good to go for next hog trip !!! Thank you for all of the tricks of the trade. I know nothing about flintlocks. Maybe just that the real hunters always used them on everything. No slight to scoped rifles or modern weapons. I have a love affair with them too !!!