To everyone that tryed/and did help, we the 3 of us here at the time got the putting pics in part so thats ok got 45 more, Im very sorry we kept messing up , I couldnt get the man doing it to pull one that didnt work, he just plowed on.. Next time we will go a bit slower . Cant belive no one asked "how did you balance those 2" so I wont tell. The short one is my H+A buggy(with heavy 1 1/8 , 1x24 twist, 50 cal)work horse, try all my things out on it, have 2 50 barrels, 62cal 1 1/8 x 30", and 20 bore smooth 30", also a 12",54 cal. THE 48" Ive told you about , its 13lbs 14oz, a true REACH OUT + TOUCH SOMEBODY rifle, is just dead on a dime 3 out of 3 at 100yds if someone who can work it does right (ive done it twice out of 40 to 50 trys) and a ball stacker at 50yds .shoots (by the book)a 433 ball, Ive tryed Wals 440 and Johns Hs teflon patchs to get 3 out of 3 shots ( luck on my part) .the front sight tube is smaller than the bore! And Ive just started to work with this one about 500 shots this last 2 months with a 103 temp and all. Next,got some great pics of the Ithaca Hawken, Ill get those run next time the guy is over to teach me how this thing works, I dont know about anyone else but the only pics Ive ever seen is one over+ over again in B+W, SO if you got a color pic of a Santa Fe, Navy Ithaca, GPR ?,or a color pic of the Kit Carson Hawken we can run them all and see what is what. Thanks for waiting on my screw ups ect. Fred :hatsoff: ( have just got to start useing GMWWs Bal-ets they show great promise) I need to have the bore size ckd and try a bore size ball as J.H. has written about. Again thanks everyone for waiting on my messing up. :yakyak: :cursing: