4F Black Powder Question

[TNGhost]

Emotion vs. logic, the never ending battle.

 

[user 36911]

Why isn't the recommendations from the companies who make the powder good enough? It's too easy to dismiss them as coming from a lawyer.

I'm curious why you use 4F as the main charge? Is that the most accurate load that your gun shoots? Maybe less fouling is the answer? Too lazy to swab?

 

[TNGhost]

A recommendation is just that, a recommendation, not a safety warning. A recommendation is starting point, performance related. A warning is safety related.

Nowhere can I find where a manufacturer says 4f will create excessive and or dangerous pressures. Can you?

I addition to the reasons I have listed repeatedly in this thread, I use 4f because I am not irrationally fearful of it.

 

[user 36911]

So, you use the load because you're not afraid of it. Accuracy is no concern?

I don't use 4F because I don't have a good reason to use it. Do you?

 

[user 36911]

This was posted by Mad Monk on another forum. It's interesting.


If you go back about a hundred years or more you would see 4f as a specific grain size in black powder production. Some companies even produced a5f powder. Keep in mind that the logic behind the system used in the U.S. since the late 1830s was that as you went down in grain size you were reducing the average grain diameter by half. In other words, 2 f was average the average mean diameter of 1 f. 3f was half the average mean diameter of 2f. Then 4 f would be half the average mean diameter of 3f. Since blck burner is a surface burning propellant you are simply increasing the amount of surface area in a charge of equal weight. I think the surface are increase would be a factor of about 1.5 times as you drop down from one grain size to the next. You reduce the amount of time it takes to burn equal volume/weight charges. This is then what gives you the higher pressures with the smaller grain size charges. Back around 1990 I was treated by Col. Vaughn Goodwin, Ret. to a bunch of pressure bomb graphs he had run on a special run of 1974 GOEX black powder. As Vaughn went from 1f to 2f and then 3f the bomb pressures would rise with the increase in surface area in the charge of powder in the full bomb. Right up to 4F powder. Then when he used 5f the pressure dropped. The 5f packed in the bomb did not have enough space between the grains to allow a rapid flame spread up through the powder charge in the bomb.

Then one day I took a partial can of my GOEX 4f flintlock pan powder into the lab I worked in. Part of my normal job in that lab was to run screen analysis on every batch of suspension PVC resin we produced in the pilot plant. Using standard screens. I quickly found out that at the time. So as with the PVC resin testing I would take 100 grams of the black powder sample and run it through a column of different size screens for 15 minutes on the Ro-Tap where the screens were run in a circle and a hammer on top would gentle tap a rubber stopper in the top. Pretty much as standard ASTM test when working with granular materials. The can of 4F GOEX was certainly a shock. No longer was 4F a specific grain size. It was simply process tailings. Anything that fell through the bottom 3F screen was collected. Years ago those "process tailings would have been hauled back over to a wheel mill for inclusion back into the product stream. But selling it as a 4F for flintlock prime powder offered more profit. An flintlock pan powder offered no liability to the company as long as it was used only for it's intended purpose. Ie., flintlock pan powder. And woe be it to any who suggested it as a main charge powder. When I pulled the screen pack apart and what was being held by each screen it was a big shock. The 4f had a lot of "dust" on the 200 mesh screen.

Then I had this nagging feeling I was neglecting something. Surface area of all of that fine stuff. The graphite added to the powder gives a surface coating on the individual grains. The 4F had a huge amount of surface area compared to 3 F powder. So I heaved some of the 4f into a glass of distilled water. Graphite is highly hydrophobic and would float on the surface of the water. I was shocked at how much graphite was found on the 4f. And when I looked at what went through the 200 mesh screen it was all graphite.

Then the dawning light. I was shooting my bp in a pair of flintlock rifles. Any time I cleaned the rifles after a day at the range cleaning the locks was a chore. Then it dawned on me that most of that graphite would simply end up on the lock and take a good deal of work to get it off. Graphite almost bonds to ferrous metals and takes a bit of scrubbing to remove.

As I relate that to using charges of 4f in a small caliber rifle such as a .32 or .36 all I can say is lots of luck getting the barrels cleaned after a day of 4f in them.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Right, I'm done.
But please if anyone finds any data that says my choice is wrong or dangerous please let me know. DATA yes. No old wives tales or fear based retoric please, not interested.
Now that IS simple!

 

[user 36911]

Right, I'm done.
But please if anyone finds any data that says my choice is wrong or dangerous please let me know. DATA yes. No old wives tales or fear based retoric please, not interested.
Now that IS simple!

What brand of 4F do you use?

 

[Carbon 6]

3f actually created higher pressures than 4f did.

Why ?

 

[Carbon 6]

But please if anyone finds any data that says my choice is wrong or dangerous please let me know

Obviously your choice works, you've tested it over and over, but for someone else the circumstances and outcome could be different. I think that should be the takeaway.

Manufacturers aren't in the habit of publishing their destruction or failure data, as it tends to be used against them either in litigation, marketing, legislation or insurance.

 

[Carbon 6]

A recommendation is just that, a recommendation, not a safety warning. A recommendation is starting point, performance related. A warning is safety related.

Nowhere can I find where a manufacturer says 4f will create excessive and or dangerous pressures. Can you?

Have you actually contacted the manufacturers ?
I'd be curious to see what was asked and what their response was.

I addition to the reasons I have listed repeatedly in this thread, I use 4f because I am not irrationally fearful of it.

I have a very broad usage of powder. 3fff gives me the broadest range of use. 4f simply does not work well in some applications, it is problematic and creates hazards.

 

[TNGhost]

Don't be escared ese.

If it was dangerous someone would say so, they would be compelled to, and/or there would be some evidence somewhere.

Unless of course you are saying the manufacturers would hide the dangers in their products?????

In which case how can you possibly trust to use 3f? 2f? 1f?

Probably though they are only hiding the dangers of 4f.

 

[TNGhost]

This was posted by Mad Monk on another forum. It's interesting.


If you go back about a hundred years or more you would see 4f as a specific grain size in black powder production. Some companies even produced a5f powder. Keep in mind that the logic behind the system used in the U.S. since the late 1830s was that as you went down in grain size you were reducing the average grain diameter by half. In other words, 2 f was average the average mean diameter of 1 f. 3f was half the average mean diameter of 2f. Then 4 f would be half the average mean diameter of 3f. Since blck burner is a surface burning propellant you are simply increasing the amount of surface area in a charge of equal weight. I think the surface are increase would be a factor of about 1.5 times as you drop down from one grain size to the next. You reduce the amount of time it takes to burn equal volume/weight charges. This is then what gives you the higher pressures with the smaller grain size charges. Back around 1990 I was treated by Col. Vaughn Goodwin, Ret. to a bunch of pressure bomb graphs he had run on a special run of 1974 GOEX black powder. As Vaughn went from 1f to 2f and then 3f the bomb pressures would rise with the increase in surface area in the charge of powder in the full bomb. Right up to 4F powder. Then when he used 5f the pressure dropped. The 5f packed in the bomb did not have enough space between the grains to allow a rapid flame spread up through the powder charge in the bomb.

Then one day I took a partial can of my GOEX 4f flintlock pan powder into the lab I worked in. Part of my normal job in that lab was to run screen analysis on every batch of suspension PVC resin we produced in the pilot plant. Using standard screens. I quickly found out that at the time. So as with the PVC resin testing I would take 100 grams of the black powder sample and run it through a column of different size screens for 15 minutes on the Ro-Tap where the screens were run in a circle and a hammer on top would gentle tap a rubber stopper in the top. Pretty much as standard ASTM test when working with granular materials. The can of 4F GOEX was certainly a shock. No longer was 4F a specific grain size. It was simply process tailings. Anything that fell through the bottom 3F screen was collected. Years ago those "process tailings would have been hauled back over to a wheel mill for inclusion back into the product stream. But selling it as a 4F for flintlock prime powder offered more profit. An flintlock pan powder offered no liability to the company as long as it was used only for it's intended purpose. Ie., flintlock pan powder. And woe be it to any who suggested it as a main charge powder. When I pulled the screen pack apart and what was being held by each screen it was a big shock. The 4f had a lot of "dust" on the 200 mesh screen.

Then I had this nagging feeling I was neglecting something. Surface area of all of that fine stuff. The graphite added to the powder gives a surface coating on the individual grains. The 4F had a huge amount of surface area compared to 3 F powder. So I heaved some of the 4f into a glass of distilled water. Graphite is highly hydrophobic and would float on the surface of the water. I was shocked at how much graphite was found on the 4f. And when I looked at what went through the 200 mesh screen it was all graphite.

Then the dawning light. I was shooting my bp in a pair of flintlock rifles. Any time I cleaned the rifles after a day at the range cleaning the locks was a chore. Then it dawned on me that most of that graphite would simply end up on the lock and take a good deal of work to get it off. Graphite almost bonds to ferrous metals and takes a bit of scrubbing to remove.

As I relate that to using charges of 4f in a small caliber rifle such as a .32 or .36 all I can say is lots of luck getting the barrels cleaned after a day of 4f in them.

So is this "Mad Monk" guy in possession of pressure testing equipment? Is he a manufacturer of powder or firearms?

Or is he just another 4faphobe?

Bomb pressures? A muzzleoader is not a bomb, which is sealed. No scientific comparison to be made there.

And how much did his screens degrade the size of the powder, and how old was his can of 4f and how had it been handled and stored? Really? Accusing the powder companies of a dangerous misleading marketing and sales practice based on that weak quasi experiment?

I think I detect a 4faphobe.

I can tell you from experience that his final statement concerning cleaning couldn't be more wrong.

Go ahead keep trying to shout down logic and evidence with your emotional feelings, 'tis the order of the day.

 

[TNGhost]

4f simply does not work well..., it is problematic and creates hazards.

Care to provide any proof whatsoever of that?

 

[TNGhost]

Why ?

Ask Lyman, it is their scientific pressure data.

 

[TNGhost]

Next thing you know someone here is going to be writing their Congressmen, demanding legislation to ban the use of 4f powder as a main charge in muzzleoading firearms, If they haven't already.

If that doesn't work they'll go to defacing 4f powders cans in stores or looting them to "save"people, and burning any books that mention it.

Its for the children you know.

 

[user 36911]

So is this "Mad Monk" guy in possession of pressure testing equipment? Is he a manufacturer of powder or firearms?

Or is he just another 4faphobe?

Bomb pressures? A muzzleoader is not a bomb, which is sealed. No scientific comparison to be made there.

And how much did his screens degrade the size of the powder, and how old was his can of 4f and how had it been handled and stored? Really? Accusing the powder companies of a dangerous misleading marketing and sales practice based on that weak quasi experiment?

I think I detect a 4faphobe.

I can tell you from experience that his final statement concerning cleaning couldn't be more wrong.

Go ahead keep trying to shout down logic and evidence with your emotional feelings, 'tis the order of the day.

A lot of assumptions again. Blowing smoke.

btw.....You appear to be the one emotional. I could care less if you blow yourself up. You really like 4F eh? Calm down.

 

[TNGhost]

A lot of assumptions again. Blowing smoke.

btw.....You appear to be the one emotional. I could care less if you blow yourself up. You really like 4F eh? Calm down.

Yes, that Mad Monk fellow sure was putting up a smoke screen. (like the pun?)

No need for me to calm down, there is no emotion in this, only logic, as evidenced by the facts at hand. No fact saying 4f is dangerous, plenty saying it is useful in main charges

I have no particular affinity for 4f over any other powder, black or smokeless.

What I have is an affinity for my freedom to do what I please within the law without some Karen pointing her finger at me and yelling "He's dangerous, he's going to hurt himself and other people".

 

[user 36911]

I've asked the question and if I got an answer I don't remember it. I'll ask again.

What advantages does 4F give you as the main charge?

 

[azmntman]

It depends on the gun. In a 1849 it allows you to gain a bit more powder under the ball so it stops bouncing off the bark of the pine tree, with smaller (and/or larger) rifles/pistols you may find your gun likes it best and provides better accuracy. This ya gotta try though so it seems many will not ever know. After all most of us when shooting a new muzzleolader can be found seeing if it likes 3f or 2f best? A few of us add in 4f and many of this few have found it is the best bet for that particular rifle/pistol. GOTTA remember these are not Winchester 30-30's that either love or hate the 150 gr or the 170 gr bullets. There are many times more combos to try with powder, cap, patch, lube etc than there manufactures of CF 30-30.

 

[Zonie]

Actually, Mad Monk (William Knight) is one of the foremost authorities on black powder in the world. He's spent his life working with it, testing it and advising major black powder companies around the world about the best ways to manufacture black powder.

I am somewhat surprised that TNGhost has never heard of him.