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4F Black Powder Question
- Thread starter fjrdoc
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Shooter1
40 Cal
I would think that fast burning would be an advantage with short barreled guns, but with my 42" 40cal I use 3fff up tp 65gr with no problem. All shotgun smooth bores use fast burning or pistol powder in modern firearms and slower burning powders in long barrel rifles.
I get better patterns out of shotguns/smooth bore muzzleloaders with finer powder. Mostly use fff Swiss for everything, no matter barrel length or bore.
Have yet to try but a dearly departed (Brown Bear) used to report his shotguns did best with 1F ???? Back to each gun is different I suppose
I remember when Brown Bear posted that suggestion and I did try it. Recoil seemed milder, but patterns from my Pedersoli 12 gauge SxS opened up pretty much across the board with 4, 6 and 7-1/2 shot. My thought at the time was that maybe the pressure curves were such that with 1f there was more pressure as the shot left the bore as opposed to the fff having a higher pressure nearer the breech. Speculation on my part. But the fff for sure held a tighter pattern in my gun. You will have to try in your gun to know what makes it happy.
Archer 756
40 Cal.
Yes, it makes a ball go faster, but WHAT BLOWs UP BARRLES, 4 F increases the pressure lots more than 3f
Curious, how much pressure is ‘lots more than 3f’?
Yes, it makes a ball go faster, but WHAT BLOWs UP BARRLES, 4 F increases the pressure lots more than 3f
I don't have any data on 3F vs 4F powder but I looked at some of the pressures listed in the Lyman BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL, 2nd edition and came up with some comparisons between 2F and 3F powder.
Under a patched roundball, an equal powder load of the two powders shows the 3F load as producing 21% more breech pressure in a .45 caliber barrel. Under a 245 grain slug in a .45 caliber barrel the 3F powder produced 29% more pressure than the 2F powder using the same load.
I know the 1st edition of the Lyman book shows some 4F powder loads. Maybe someone who has one of those books can tell us what the pressure differences that book shows are?
There are a couple of pages posted in thread #26.
Looks like the pressure values for 4fg are about the same as 3fg.
Looks like the pressure values for 4fg are about the same as 3fg.
Posted 44 caliber pistol data for 3f and 4f in pistols from Lyman Handbook first edition (same data is in the 9th printing) in post 26 of this thread. Not much difference in pressures. Was looking for data that others have that causes all the concern, such as ‘ WHAT BLOWs UP BARRLES, 4 F increases the pressure lots more than 3f’.
This is the problem.
Yes, it makes a ball go faster, but WHAT BLOWs UP BARRLES, 4 F increases the pressure lots more than 3f
Assuming!
If 4f increased pressure so much that it could burst a barrel it would either have warnings plastered all over the can or be removed from sale.
Do you people not realize that manufacturers of barrels will have a very good value of the required pressure to burst a barrel!
So if 4f could come remotely close to the required pressure to burst a barrel don't you think a barrel maker would have it written on the barrel " do not use 4f"!!
Why oh why do some spout this dumb mantra about pressure. Shooting a firearm depends on pressure! With out it our iron tubes would be useless.
Some of us must be absolutely petrified every time they pull a trigger. Give it up, give up shooting. Your mental health is far more important than getting stressed about an imagined dangerous amount of pressure in a barrel that does not exist.
Give me strength....how the heck did we get to the bloody moon? How did we get to do brain surgery. How, how, how did we ever do anything with so many folk about messing their pants with worry all the freaking time.......
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I use 4F as the main charge in my .32 and .36 flinters with no problem.
horsehockey....
SM
SM
Curious if this is a random statement or if you disagree with something specifically on this thread?
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Awhile back we sorta had this same discussion and I was firmly in the "No 4F as a main charge" camp. I based my decisions on what I was taught, and what was actually being used on the ranges and the rendevous I attended.
As I have been one to describe many muzzleloader habits as "Old wive's tales" which are beliefs unfounded by tests or good data, I decided to contact the current manufacturer of a black powder brand and ask for data. I will only copy the text as I wish to keep the respondent's name private.
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2019 3:03 AM
To: Help Account <[email protected]>
Subject: New submission from Contact Us on IMRPowder.com
As I have been one to describe many muzzleloader habits as "Old wive's tales" which are beliefs unfounded by tests or good data, I decided to contact the current manufacturer of a black powder brand and ask for data. I will only copy the text as I wish to keep the respondent's name private.
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2019 3:03 AM
To: Help Account <[email protected]>
Subject: New submission from Contact Us on IMRPowder.com
| Send us a Message | |
| I am an old traditional flintlocker. I use 2fg and 3fg Goex for my main charges and 4fg Goex to prime my pans. However an increasing amount of younger shooters wish to try 4fg as the main charge citing a lack of testing data showing there is a real danger of blowing up a gun. Fact is, it's hard to successfully argue the point because I myself can find nothing definite against using 4fg as a main charge. Do you have any data that you are willing to share with me to help me convince some of these shooters against the use of 4fg as a main charge? Thank you, Thank you for reaching out to us. We appreciate your work and effort in passing along the traditions of muzzleloading to new shooters. We do not have pressure testing data for 4f powder. As you already know 4f should only be used for priming pans. If 4f were used as a main charge the pressures would be very high but the velocities would remain low, you would be gaining nothing and risking everything. A good point is to remind these young shooter what is at risk: eye sight , use of your hands, possibly death, the dangers are real. Thank you again for your contribution to our youth and the tradition of muzzleloading. Technical support 6430 vista dr. Shawnee, Ks 66218 So that's it for hard data. Make up your own mind and proceed carefully. As for the old Darkhorse I'll just chalk another one up to an "Old wive's tale" and keep doing things the same way as I've done the last 46 years. I get good results and enjoy doing things as I understand them. And as I see the situation using 4FG as a main charge offers no benefits to me, so why do it? |
The same old blah blah.
Hogdens boldly announced they have no data but then went on to express an opinion! Based on what exactly?
I know what their opinion was based on, mitigation and blame protection.
Lame, very lame.
My work took me to Burlington County, New Jersey back in the 1970s and there was a historic site there for the location of "The Gunpowder House." It seems that during the American Revolution, a batch of The Colonials powder got wet and they spread it out in front of the open fire to dry. Needless to say, the house went up in a big boom. A record of the time explained: "This day Nijah Peacock was buried, a very ingenous man in Evesham. He had, since the wars began, erected a powder mill and carryed it on to considerable perfection till one day he was at work amongst his powder and by some means it catchd fire and kild him and hurt several of his family besides. It was said that the rhoof of the house was blown off and very much shattered to pieces with the blast of the powder heard for ten miles around"
Old Hawkeye
50 Cal.
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The letter from Hodgdon is laughable. They first admit they have NO PRESSURE DATA, then go on to say pressure will be very high. If they have no data, how do they know??? Double talk & gibberish, or should I say Old Wives Tale? If it's so darn dangerous why are they keeping it a secret from the people that buy 4f? Shouldn't the can be marked with some kind of WARNING???? Did their lawyers go on vacation?
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I would mix it in equal parts with 3F and reduce the load.
RAEDWALD
40 Cal.
Of course there is the observation that parachute manufacturers get very few letters complaining of failures but many thanking them for successes.............
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