4F in .31 1849

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"Now, show me please the documentation of someone, an idiot or other that has caused harm by using 4fff as a main charge?
I beg you, anyone, to come up with some factual account, please!"

How many idiots do you think would allow such an incident about them to become public knowledge?

I have seen a few split or separated cylinders from cap and ball guns over the years. The Whys and Wherefores were not included. As I recall one was a small caliber cylinder. with a chamber wall split and blown out ward. It was a very thin chamber wall. To me it is like a guy saying a hot smokeless 45-70 load with jacketed bullets can be fired in a rifle without knowing the listener has an Whitney rolling block with mild steel cast parts.
 
zimmerstutzen said:
"Now, show me please the documentation of someone, an idiot or other that has caused harm by using 4fff as a main charge?
I beg you, anyone, to come up with some factual account, please!"

How many idiots do you think would allow such an incident about them to become public knowledge?

I have seen a few split or separated cylinders from cap and ball guns over the years. The Whys and Wherefores were not included. As I recall one was a small caliber cylinder. with a chamber wall split and blown out ward. It was a very thin chamber wall. To me it is like a guy saying a hot smokeless 45-70 load with jacketed bullets can be fired in a rifle without knowing the listener has an Whitney rolling block with mild steel cast parts.
Click to expand...
Subjective, anecdotal.
You don't know what was in the cylinder you refer to and thus assume. How is your assumption correct verses mine?

There are documented accounts of people loading level three 45/70 loads into older weaker actions and actions letting go. Soooo why is nothing documented about 4f! Because it don't happen!
Everyone here is in more risk driving a car or running down a flight of stairs!

How many bullseye loads have been loaded in revolvers, a near if not 100% nitro powder, a substance known for detonation! But 4f is a big no no! Why?
Show me the science.

If you are so scared of this you must be a nervous wreck if drive anywhere.
Evidence please, for the umpteenth time.
 
Show me the evidence that it is SAFE, more than that it has been tested in good quality hand selected guns by a Lyman Laboratory.

You still do not know what gun the OP has, and yet you'd argue to put the 4fg a totally unknown quality gun. I have a pistol that I know has been proof tested for exceptionally heavy loads. I have shot 200 grain loads in it with cannon powder. The barrel wall thickness is 3/4 inch of modern steel.

You are professing to know what is safe for another person to risk life and limb with and have no clue of the chamber wall thickness of his particular fire arm, much less the quality of the firearm. Demanding proof that some other gun has failed is a ridiculous point. Some old muzzle loaders were routinely fired with old semi smokeless bulk powders. I suppose in your mind that means other semi smokeless powders are safe in all muzzleloaders. A conclusion we both know is false, dangerous and just simply stupid.
 
If the original posters gun is so fragile he will not be any safer with 3f!
To suggest a manufacturer of firearms makes them bearly strong enough to stay together is ludicrous!
Any doubt of a firearms construction means one should have it inspected by someone qualified and not go by a majority or minority of opinions on a forum!
Whilst most want to assume the OP is dealing with something possibly of jubious manufacturer is yet another assumption.
My assumption was to give him some credit in that he can tell a good revolver from trash, that it is made of steel and has good timing!
Unless I am mistaken no one advised him to get said piece examined first.
Unless I am mistaken all the na sayers told him to use other granulations!

I will point out to all here again. 4f burns slightly faster loose. Compressed as a charge in a gun it yields slightly more pressure but in no way does it exceed a safe level of pressure for a firearm.

Never use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader and I resent comments that suggest I vindicate its use in muzzleloaders! ( I love it when experts start clutching at straws)!
 
Sorry, I forgot that I asked this question already. Have not shot my little Navy Arms in over a year. Was looking at it the other day, which led to the question being asked again. To save my real black powder for my rifles, I now use Triple 7 in my revolvers, think I will do the same in my little Colt.The only reason I use 4F to prime flinters is just because I have this freebie can.
 
In this video just after the, 4:40 mark, Mike Bellivue [Duelist1954], loads his 1849 Wells Fargo pocket model with 12 grains of Goex 4F powder.
He is a well respected and experienced BP shooter.
As long as the revolver is in good condition, then it should be safe.
These guns are proof tested and he explains that it's a 5 shooter with plenty of modern steel around the chambers.
He goes on to say that 4F is a good granulation to use in a small confined space such as the Wells Fargo chambers.
And that it gives it enough power to make it a more effective weapon.
Another forum's posters have expressed the same sentiment since some balls will bounce off of a pine board if their .31 is not loaded with 4F or a more powerful sub.powder such as 777.


 
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Another thing is that from what a few European shooters over on their side of the pond 4F is for handguns. Take a look at the packaging on the older Swiss bottles:

tool to take screen snapshot

And this is a much more energetic powder than standard Goex and the others that seem to produce similar velocities. This powder has been commonly used in .44 cal revolvers according to these few fellows.
 
As I said in the other post that was linked earlier in this one, I think using 4f powder in the little .31 caliber revolvers is totally safe so I am in agreement with the video.

The fact that these guns have 5 chambers rather than 6 like the larger caliber guns gives a very large wall thickness between the chambers.
The thickness of the cylinder wall between the chamber and the outside of the cylinder is also quite thick.
These outer wall thicknesses are comparable if not thicker than the cylinder wall thicknesses used on the larger caliber Colts and when coupled with the very small powder loads the .31's use I think 4f will be quite safe.

I notice that in the Lyman BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL (2nd Ed.) they test both GOEX 3Fg powder and Pyrodex P.

The GOEX powder charges gave the following muzzle velocities when fired out of a pistol with a 3 1/2" barrel:
7 gr = 494 fps, 9.5 gr = 642 fps. 12 gr = 790 fps.

Using the Pyrodex P powder charges of the same volume of powder as the GOEX loads the muzzle velocity out of the same gun were:
7 gr = 508 fps, 9.5 gr = 707 fps, 12 gr = 906 fps.

As is often the case, the Pyrodex loads gave higher velocities than the equivalent black powder loads.
This tells me the chamber pressures with the Pyrodex loads was considerably higher and I don't see where anyone has suggested that using Pyrodex in one of these little .31 caliber revolvers would be dangerous.
I have no doubt that Triple Se7en gives even higher chamber pressures and velocities and I also haven't seen anyone suggest that it should never be used in a .31 caliber revolver.

I should also like to point out that 4f powder was available in the U.S. in the mid 1850's and the instructions that came with Colt's pistols has no warnings about loading it into the revolvers his company made.

Summing it up, I believe using 4f black powder in either the .31 Colts or the .31 Remington revolvers is safe to do.
 
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"To suggest a manufacturer of firearms makes them bearly strong enough to stay together is ludicrous!"

You obviously don't know about some of the crap guns and kits sold here in the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's. Like the Kruger cap and ball gun and the 12 caliber cap and ball revolver with steel barrel encased in genuine styrene, (The $3.00 wonder) or the other junk revolvers and pistols sold by Haig's and FIE.
 
Thanks for all the replies. Think I will pass on the 4F, I am not hurting for powder anyway. If I have any 4F left when I croak off, I will have it buried with me. That would give some archeologist 1000 years from now something to think about!
 

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