4F in .31 1849

[Britsmoothy]

The OP stated he will pass on using 4F powder. So why continue this thread ????

Because he can! Who are you to suggest he should not ?

 

[rodwha]

The OP stated he will pass on using 4F powder. So why continue this thread ????

Once a discussion gets going is it just about the OP? Virtually every thread evolves beyond the initial post and question(s). It’s like 5 guys all standing together with another coming up and asking a question. Is the conversation supposed to halt once his question is answered or he makes a decision?

 

[8 BORE]

Once a discussion gets going is it just about the OP? Virtually every thread evolves beyond the initial post and question(s). It’s like 5 guys all standing together with another coming up and asking a question. Is the conversation supposed to halt once his question is answered or he makes a decision?

Yep

 

[Zonie]

Let's stick to discussing the pistols please.

 

[Juice Jaws]

Let's stick to discussing the pistols please.

Thank you Zonie

 

[zimmerstutzen]

There is a certain irony here. If I asked about putting 4fg in a 32 Caliber MUZZLE LOADER Crockett Pistol from traditions, most every body would say no, never a main charge. If I asked about such a charge in a 32 caliber CVA Squirrel rifle, you would say no. Even though the breech and barrel wall thickness of the crockett and the CVA Squirrel rifle is far thicker and presumably stronger. Yet for the revolver because some body on a few occasions has done it it is suddenly ok for revolvers no matter what shape and how weak they may be. Colts black powder instruction manual says 3fg only. Pietta's manual says 3fg, yet some will push the envelope to 4fg for a much thinner revolver cylinder than a rifle or pistol that they would say "absolutely not" to 4fg as a main charge. So the song and dance can begin with the fact that a revolver chamber is limited and can't be over charged yadda yadda, but 10 grains of 4fg is no different in one than the other.

 

[arcticap]

There is a certain irony here. If I asked about putting 4fg in a 32 Caliber MUZZLE LOADER Crockett Pistol from traditions, most every body would say no, never a main charge. If I asked about such a charge in a 32 caliber CVA Squirrel rifle, you would say no. Even though the breech and barrel wall thickness of the crockett and the CVA Squirrel rifle is far thicker and presumably stronger. Yet for the revolver because some body on a few occasions has done it it is suddenly ok for revolvers no matter what shape and how weak they may be. Colts black powder instruction manual says 3fg only. Pietta's manual says 3fg, yet some will push the envelope to 4fg for a much thinner revolver cylinder than a rifle or pistol that they would say "absolutely not" to 4fg as a main charge. So the song and dance can begin with the fact that a revolver chamber is limited and can't be over charged yadda yadda, but 10 grains of 4fg is no different in one than the other.

The world has so much standardization that folks have trouble applying common sense and thinking outside of the box.
Standardized rules are intended to protect people from themselves which is a good thing in most cases.
The trick is to develop enough wisdom to know when an exception to the standard rules can be applied and when an exception isn't appropriate.
At least with a .31 revolver, the chambers can't be double loaded with 4F.
If a .31 revolver can't be safely loaded with 4F because of its poor condition, then perhaps it shouldn't be loaded & fired at all.
It's still a judgement call that's based on applying some common sense about the condition of the revolver.
But being in poor condition would be an exception to the generally accepted common sense rule that allows 4F to be loaded in a .31 revolver.

 

[rodwha]

There is a certain irony here. If I asked about putting 4fg in a 32 Caliber MUZZLE LOADER Crockett Pistol from traditions, most every body would say no, never a main charge. If I asked about such a charge in a 32 caliber CVA Squirrel rifle, you would say no. Even though the breech and barrel wall thickness of the crockett and the CVA Squirrel rifle is far thicker and presumably stronger. Yet for the revolver because some body on a few occasions has done it it is suddenly ok for revolvers no matter what shape and how weak they may be. Colts black powder instruction manual says 3fg only. Pietta's manual says 3fg, yet some will push the envelope to 4fg for a much thinner revolver cylinder than a rifle or pistol that they would say "absolutely not" to 4fg as a main charge. So the song and dance can begin with the fact that a revolver chamber is limited and can't be over charged yadda yadda, but 10 grains of 4fg is no different in one than the other.

I wouldn’t, but I’d question how well 4F would do in such a long barrel compared to 3F, not unlike how in larger calibers at times 2F does better than 3. But not because of safeties sake. But if we were speaking of some small caliber carbine...

 

[rodwha]

There is a certain irony here. If I asked about putting 4fg in a 32 Caliber MUZZLE LOADER Crockett Pistol from traditions, most every body would say no, never a main charge. If I asked about such a charge in a 32 caliber CVA Squirrel rifle, you would say no. Even though the breech and barrel wall thickness of the crockett and the CVA Squirrel rifle is far thicker and presumably stronger. Yet for the revolver because some body on a few occasions has done it it is suddenly ok for revolvers no matter what shape and how weak they may be. Colts black powder instruction manual says 3fg only. Pietta's manual says 3fg, yet some will push the envelope to 4fg for a much thinner revolver cylinder than a rifle or pistol that they would say "absolutely not" to 4fg as a main charge. So the song and dance can begin with the fact that a revolver chamber is limited and can't be over charged yadda yadda, but 10 grains of 4fg is no different in one than the other.

Quite frankly I don’t know how common the Hazard’s paper cartridges were during the Civil War, nor do I know how common it was to find fine grain powders in metallic cartridges from the late 1800’s, though Curator has stated it was common in what he disassembled. However 4F and finer powders were most certainly used, and apparently all the way on up until the 1st Edition of the Lyman’s Handbook. Why it was removed is anyone’s guess, and may well be for the same reasons we’ve been told in the mid to late 1900’s that 4F is only for the pan with no other reason than that despite the fact nobody has come up with any issues or reasons beyond “we’ve been told not to.”

History isn’t on the side of 4F is only for the pan and there hasn’t been any documentation that this is reasonable. However, as I’ve said, I’d never recommend going beyond manufacturer’s warnings.

 

[Eras Gone]

I shoot 4F in my .31 all the time with no issues and no indication of over pressure. I shoot about 10-12 grains behind my 88 grain conicals. I can feel a slight difference in recoil compared to the same amont of 3f, but the recoil is the same or less than 12 grains of Triple 7.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I shoot 4F in my .31 all the time with no issues and no indication of over pressure. I shoot about 10-12 grains behind my 88 grain conicals. I can feel a slight difference in recoil compared to the same amont of 3f, but the recoil is the same or less than 12 grains of Triple 7.

Thank you for speaking up on this.

Brits.

 

[drobs]

I've shot 4F in my Pietta 36 cal 1851 Navy and Pietta 44 Cal 1858 Army - both with round ball.
Recoil was the same as 3F (nothing to speak of). Not having a Chronograph, I can't tell if their is any increase in Muzzle Velocity.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Excellent.

B.

 

[Britsmoothy]

By way of an experiment on Saturday I loaded my Bess with shot and course powder like that that every one recomends, equal measure for 1&1/2 ounce of shot. It was puny, no power at all.
I then went ahead and loaded with 4f. Same shot load but powder reduced to the 1&1/4 on the shot measure.
Much better, stronger and better recoil, as you would expect etc.

I think most of us have become a little backwards on this subject, especially with out any evidence to support the predictions of doom!
I am about to leave for home from work....a much more scary prospect!

 

[32 ballard xl]

Show me the evidence that it is SAFE, more than that it has been tested in good quality hand selected guns by a Lyman Laboratory.

You still do not know what gun the OP has, and yet you'd argue to put the 4fg a totally unknown quality gun. I have a pistol that I know has been proof tested for exceptionally heavy loads. I have shot 200 grain loads in it with cannon powder. The barrel wall thickness is 3/4 inch of modern steel.

You are professing to know what is safe for another person to risk life and limb with and have no clue of the chamber wall thickness of his particular fire arm, much less the quality of the firearm. Demanding proof that some other gun has failed is a ridiculous point. Some old muzzle loaders were routinely fired with old semi smokeless bulk powders. I suppose in your mind that means other semi smokeless powders are safe in all muzzleloaders. A conclusion we both know is false, dangerous and just simply stupid.

Well, Colt must not have known how dangerous 4f powder was in pistol loads, because that is what they used in their combustable cartridges.

 

[scrubby2009]

Ah, the lawyers will be the death of the Empire. Any discussion regarding safe and acceptable practices for black powder pistols gets a thorough reading by me. Looking forward to acquiring an 1849, already bought a pound of FFFFg. Now about those heeled conical bullets....

 

[Britsmoothy]

Ah, the lawyers will be the death of the Empire. Any discussion regarding safe and acceptable practices for black powder pistols gets a thorough reading by me. Looking forward to acquiring an 1849, already bought a pound of FFFFg. Now about those heeled conical bullets....

I wish there was a case study to read about so I could read about it. A court of law would determine the facts but I guess there ain't any !

 

[drobs]

I'm pretty sure Pietta's lawyers wrote the following in their revolver manuals:

 

[Eras Gone]

Here is my review of the Uberti Model 1849 shooting, 3F, 4F and 777 with conical bullets. My biggest trouble was cap jams caused mainly by the week mainspring and very open bore nipples.

 

[scrubby2009]

I'm pretty sure Pietta's lawyers wrote the following in their revolver manuals:

By volume? Hmm. I build my paper cartridges with about 22 to 23 grns Goex for an original Remington. Shoots great. BTW, thanks to Eras Gone for the excellent mold for casting bullets.