4F in a rifle or revolver

[robinsroost]

Has anyone tried using FFFFg as a primary powder in a small bore rifle, like a .32 or a revolver like an 1851 Navy or 1858 New Army? Would this be a safety issue? Robin

 

[cynthialee]

The only guns I know of designed for 4F as a primary charge are the small screw barrel Derringers. And the charge is small like 10 grains.

4F as a primary charge in a gun not designed for it is not a smart move.

 

[David W.]

4Fg is only for priming. It will build up too much pressure in any gun. Never use anything below 3Fg.

Has anyone tried using FFFFg as a primary powder in a small bore rifle, like a .32 or a revolver like an 1851 Navy or 1858 New Army? Would this be a safety issue? Robin

 

[Alden]

Listen to them...

 

[bubba15301]

4f can be used in the 31cal revolvers

 

[necchi]

Would this be a safety issue?

Uhm, Ya.
Look at it this way, if 4F was a good thing to use as a main charge, it would be common knowledge and shared along with all the other load recommendations we see here on the forum.

But it's not, and folks don't recommend it.
The interesting thing is most folks now-a-days don't even recommend it for priming powder either, :idunno:

 

[cynthialee]

4f can be used in the 31cal revolvers

what size charges are we talking and which makers guns have you done this with?

 

[bubba15301]

asm pocket remington,10to 12 grains. loads can be found in lyman blackpowder handbook

 

[George]

what size charges are we talking and which makers guns have you done this with?

I owned a Ruger Old Army revolver until someone decided he heeded it more than I did. I routinely fired maximum loads of FFFFg in it, as approved by Ruger.

From the owner's manual:

Ammunition
Black Powder is usually classified by powder grain size, with “Fg” being the largest granulation and “FFFFg” being the smallest granulation normally available. Any granulation within these gradations could be used in the “Old Army”; normally, however, “FFFg” is the preferred grain size.

Powder Charge
It is safe to use as much Black Powder as the chamber will hold, leaving room for the bullet. This maximum loading is not usually the most accurate loading, however.

ROA only, as far as I know none of the other relica BP revolvers are approved for 4F.

Spence

 

[cynthialee]

well the ROA is not a standard issue revolver now is it?

I have never got to shoot one. Just look and wish.

 

[Rokon]

As I remember the story, Bill Ruger and his company attorney were sitting around trying to figure out how to PROOF TEST the Old Army.

They finally decided to fill the chambers with Bullseye and let fly. The cylinders held that OVER PROOF load and so you see the reference to ffffg in a .45 caliber cap-and ball.

 

[azmntman]

Cynthia....I have a ROA and bet your new toy is at least as much fun! Very jealous and soon as the wife forgives me for the lie of Jedidiah Star "plumbing parts" (I just got busted) may try to get one like yours. ROA is a cannon, and accurate for sure but the one in yer post a few days ago is shiny and has caught my eye!

 

[David W.]

Of course, a Ruger is more or less, a modern gun because it's made of modern stainless steel. It's not what other replicas are made of. I would be careful suggesting anything that the typical replica is capable of using, lest some newcomer reads it incorrectly and tries the wrong powder in the wrong gun. I especially would refrain from anyone using a smokeless powder in a black powder firearm. I don't care if Ruger did proof it. It may give someone a "I think I'll try this" with the wrong powder. That has no place in this forum. My 2¢

As I remember the story, Bill Ruger and his company attorney were sitting around trying to figure out how to PROOF TEST the Old Army.

They finally decided to fill the chambers with Bullseye and let fly. The cylinders held that OVER PROOF load and so you see the reference to ffffg in a .45 caliber cap-and ball.

 

[Rokon]

TUT-TUT
The response was specifically addressed to
the user instructions given by Ruger for their Old Army.

I think it was crystal clear. It had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RUN OF THE MILL BP REVOLVERS.

 

[Dphar]

4f can be used in the 31cal revolvers

what size charges are we talking and which makers guns have you done this with?

There was a powder granulation called "Revolver" back in the day that was finer than FFF IIRC. Greener in "The Gun and Its Development" 1896 shows a wood cut showing a fine grained powder listed as "Revolver". It appears to be much smaller than #2 which is similar to FFF (I think FFF Swiss is #2 in Europe). Small cartridge revolvers were loaded with fine grain powder. Probably "Revolver" at least in one factory 38 S&W I pulled the bullet from. I was not in my shop at the time, not my round either, so I did not get to weigh it. Likely 10-12 grains max. Not a full case in any event.
Personally I would rather shoot FFFF in a revolver than Fg in a field piece, even with a blank, which some will do since Cannon granulation is harder to find. I suspect that FG is 3-4 timed faster than Cannon at least, FFFF is only twice as fast (based on granule size will not produce pressures like using a SMOKELESS with a much fast burn rate will). But I have seen people shoot one pound of F at a time in a full sized gun to make noise, and it did, along with impressive shock waves from the muzzle.

Dan

 

[MSW]

have I tried it? no

would I recommend it? no

what do you gain, except the very real possibility of rupturing a barrel, a cylinder, ruining an otherwise perfectly good gun, injuring or killing yourself, injuring or killing bystanders, becoming enmeshed in protracted and costly litigation, being crippled, and generally botching up everything you contact for the next several decades?

a can of FFFg will cost the same as a can of FFFFg, so I don't see any advantage.

just my two cents worth...

 

[azmntman]

I agree, I will not even buy 4f again as 3f works just as well for primer in my .50.

 

[rodwha]

I'm not so sure that it can't be done. According to a man's research into combustable cartridges has shown that the revolver powder used back during the CW era was more akin to 4F Swiss powder. Here's some quotes from his research that was given the OK to post:

Major Symington describes Colt's combustibles as, "The larger bullet was .456 in. diameter, and weighed 230 grains; the charge of powder weighed 20 grains. The small bullet was .383 in. diameter, and weighed 120 grains; the powder charge weighed 12 grains. The powder of both sizes of cartridges was of very fine grain called sporting powder, manufactured specially for these arms...."

After test firing Colt's combustibles, Major Symington reported, "The severity of shock [recoil] was due to the rapid combustion of such fine grained powder, particularly noted in Colt's cartridges, the powder of which is of special make.....'.

On page 552 of "THE GUN" (TG), the powder granulation illustration (Photo "D") shows "Revolver Powder" to be very fine grained exactly as Major Symington described the Hazard gunpowder used in Colt's combustible cartridges. The Hazard Powder described by Major Symington, and the "Revolver Powder" illustrated in THE GUN, is practically identical to FFFFg granulation today.

In the section on "Black Powder" in UNDERSTANDING FIREARMS BALLISTICS (UFB), author Robert A. Rinker's clear explanation of gunpowder characteristics, clarifies the Hazard Powder Company decision to provide FFFFg sporting-grade gunpowder for revolver use. "Experience and experimentation taught early gunners that particle size controlled the speed of combustion...............FFFFg was the smallest particle with the fastest burn rate and is used mainly in handguns." (UFB, page 23).
With a bit of thought, it becomes clear why the short chambers of a revolver's rotating breech would require a special powder capable of rapid combustion. Obviously, coarse-grained musket and rifle-grade gunpowders designed for use in barrel lengths of 30 inches and longer are not going to perform efficiently in a combustion chamber averaging a bit over an inch in length. With that bit of reasoning in mind, the Hazard Powder Company decision that very fine grain (FFFFg) gunpowder was best suited to the percussion revolver's combustion dynamics makes a lot of sense.

Hazard Powder Company's "Revolver Powder" was a fast-combusting FFFFg made from high performance Sporting-grade gunpowder, providing the most power possible from a given charge of gunpowder! This very potent Hazard "Number 1 Pistol Powder" is precisely the "First Quality Cartridge Powder" Hazard provided to Colt, D.C. Sage, H. W. Mason and other manufacturers of revolver combustible cartridges.
Now, before anyone runs out to buy a can of Swiss Blackpowder FFFFg to stuff in their favorite percussion "smoke wagon", be aware that FFFFg can be VERY DANGEROUS, ESPECIALLY in a revolver, unless you precisely understand the problems unique to FFFFg, that can arise from FFFFg use in a revolver.

Loaded properly with due caution, and with CORRECT charges, FFFFg is perfectly safe, and makes an excellent percussion revolver propellant. Near the end of this article I will detail the dangers that can arise from FFFFg use in a revolver. By understanding the possible dangers that can arise with improper use of FFFFg, the proper and safe use of this very fine grain powder in revolvers will be very clear.

As explained earlier, "Revolver Gunpowder" of the period from 1855 to 1875, was revealed to be sporting-grade gunpowder in FFFFg granulation. Combustible cartridges made by Colt's Cartridge Works used very fine grain sporting-grade gunpowder as documented by Major John Symington in June 1860. Major Symington of the Allegheny Arsenal near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, had dissected and test fired Colt's combustibles in .36 and .44 caliber, detailing their construction and performance in his June 1860 report to Chief of Ordnance Colonel Henry T. Craig.

Major Symington did not like Colt's combustible cartridges, because they recoiled sharply when fired, and because Colt's prices were too high. For test purposes, Major Symington constructed revolver combustibles at the Allegheny Arsenal, using tissue paper (similar to gift-wrapping tissue) envelopes and replacing the very fine grain sporting grade gunpowder with fine grain (FFFg) rifle grade powder. He thought the FFFg still generated too much recoil and recommended using musket-grade powder to keep recoil light! It appears that Major Symington was more interested in an easily controlled handgun rather than maximum power.

 

[rodwha]

Mike Beliveau has used 4F in his .31 cal pocket pistol as well.


My own digging around for answers began when I was told these .44 cal revolvers weren't capable of hunting medium game ethically, that they were no more powerful than a 38 Spl.

That's true if you use standard Goex or Pyrodex. Not true if you use a sporting grade powder.

And if a .44 cal revolver were no more powerful than a .38 Spl it would be odd the account of a grizzly being killed with 2 shots.

It would also seem to fly against the notion that the Walker was designed with the ability to take a horse. And if the .36 cal ball was plenty to take a man why carry a .44 cal?

 

[BrownBear]

...FFFFg as a primary powder in a small bore rifle....

Bud of mine in his early 70's is a life-time flinter, following on the heels of his dad and granddad who were also devoted. Lotta history going back a long, long ways into the Tennessee hills.

He insists on using 4f in his 32 and 36 cal rifles, saying his family has always done it and always will. Charges area adjusted down accordingly from what I use with 3f, but still kinda makes my skin crawl.

Aside from his assertions that over a century of family tradition has proven it safe, I've made one observation while being around him and his guns:

The flash holes on all of them are seriously eroded, torching off flame and smoke enough to make you seriously avoid standing anywhere on the wrong side of him. I've suggested flash hole liners, and he sezz "Yeah, some day."

Never heard mention of eroded flash holes as a factor before, but it sure looks to be the result of long use of 4f as a main charge.

Anyone else know of anything similar?