4F Main Charge

[romeoh]

that load of 90gr 4F has to kick like a mule.

I can imagine that load leads to a green and blue shoulder after a few shots at the range...

romeoh

 

[jdixon]

Then he told me that he uses 90 gr of 4F for the main charge under a .50 PRB.

90 grains of 4F :shocked2: I use 75 grains of 3F Swiss as my hunting load with a .50 flinter. That load knocks deer on their butt! What the heck is this guy trying to do, get pass through shots on Elk the long way? All of the other possible disasters already mentioned are valid points. All those aside, why in the heck do you need that much steam behind a .490 PBR for deer anyway??? :shake:

 

[Mike Brooks]

hi ho again jimbo,

what i don't understand is, how he can stand the recoil. that load of 90gr 4F has to kick like a mule. can't imagine trying to site in a load like that.

..ttfn..grampa..

I suspect with the "drilled out touch hole" most of the get up and go gets up and goes out the large vent hole. :rotf: Probably not much kick left after that. :youcrazy:

 

[xxgrampa]

greetings mike,

with the drilled out flash hole he gets recoil from two directions. first gets slaped in the face from the touch hole recoil then gets kicked in the shoulder from the load.

if it were me i'da waved the white flag a long time ago. :surrender:

..ttfn..grampa..

 

[juancho]

Do not try this at home or anywere else! I alredy did :shake:
As young boys my brothers and i heard abuot this same topic so we ddecided to test it to filter out the :bull:
We took a 18in 40 cal barrel and set out to test (mithbusters style) ,read make fail, this barrel/plug combination.
We decided 4f was not fine enough so it was ground to dust.
First test was 160 grains and two patched balls.
The rig was set up on the ground covered with logs and heavy rubber to catch sharpnell and a "target" trown in as "souvenir".
Proceded to ignite by wire from a safe location, and out to see what happened.
To our surprize everything looked fine.
Ok, so we needed a bit more.Now it was 250 grains very compacted with a mallet, a plastic bag, also compacted and finaly 5 patched balls :shocked2:
This load took most of the barrel.When ignited the sound was diferent, louder of course but diferent.
I will always remember my brothers' face when he found the first piece of barrel.It looked like a pretzel embeded in a piece of wood. :rotf:
This was a deliverate atempt to blow up a barrel, but the results are no diferent of what could happen if You mess with unsafe loads :nono:

 

I'm sorry but I can't resist......ignorance can be educated.....on the other hand, stupidity is permanent, often voluntary and sometimes fatal.....

Vic

 

[Pittsburghunter]

Ok, so we needed a bit more.Now it was 250 grains very compacted with a mallet, a plastic bag, also compacted and finaly 5 patched balls
This load took most of the barrel.When ignited the sound was diferent, louder of course but diferent.
I will always remember my brothers' face when he found the first piece of barrel.It looked like a pretzel embeded in a piece of wood.
This was a deliverate atempt to blow up a barrel, but the results are no diferent of what could happen if You mess with unsafe loads

That ain't proofing that's making a pipe bomb.

My experience is with homemade firecrackers using 2F, 3F and 4F. What I found was the finer the granulation the louder the report and the brighter the flash. I make my firecrackers as reloadable mortars using film cans and the 4F seems to work best but beats up the mortars pretty well and it is hard to find the covers.

My guess or opinion is never use 4F in large quantities in a rifle. If you insist on it warn the shooters near you :winking:

 

[renovato]

Yow! That made my BS detector go off. I don't know about silicone on the prime, but 4F as a main charge? Yikes.

 

I think the guy's just trying to get into the Darwin Awards book.

Bill

God made man before woman so as to give him time to think of an answer for her first question

 

[aragorn]

The irony is that 4F should - I would have thought - be more hydroscopic, ie more prone to ruin by damp than larger granulations (see comment by Mike Brooks above), so the better bad weather load should by 3F or 2F if that is the main criterion. Other than that, I can't see the point. 4F would be more likely to leak out into the touchhole and create a 'wick', which nobody wants. And in the touchhole, a good modern lock pan cover should keep it dry, especially if the lock is covered with a leather cover loosely tied down. All in all, it seems a bad idea especially with the added risks of undue high pressure, especially with a large load like 90 grains.

 

[matt denison]

As a muzzleloader manufacturer who makes barrels I must comment on using 4 Fg as a main charge. This is exactly the kind of situation that keeps me awake at night. Despite all the warnings and "common knowledge" out there, there will always be somebody who thinks he knows better. Then we see his name in the obituaries along with a friend or two. Here's the deal. I and any reputable barrel maker make our barrels almost indestructable. We have to guard against the occasional double charge that will inevitbly happen. Then some (blanketyblank) comes along and insists that he can get away with using a FFFFg main charge. Believe me there is NO ADVANTAGE to using a 90 grain charge of FFFFg in any gun. So then he gets distracted one day while loading, doubles the charge and boom. Game over for him, bystanders, and me and my insurance company.

One of the earlier responses to this topic said it is not unusual to use 4 Fg for a main charge. I beg to differ with you sir. It should never be done. Please let's not have this be seen as normal. If your gun won't shoot unless you load it with FFFFg then you are doing something wrong or you need a new gun.

Respectfully,
Matt Denison aka laffin dog
North Star West, Inc.

 

[matt denison]

As a muzzleloader manufacturer who makes barrels I must comment on using 4 Fg as a main charge. This is exactly the kind of situation that keeps me awake at night. Despite all the warnings and "common knowledge" out there, there will always be somebody who thinks he knows better. Then we see his name in the obituaries along with a friend or two. Here's the deal. I and any reputable barrel maker make our barrels almost indestructable. We have to guard against the occasional double charge that will inevitbly happen. Then some (blanketyblank) comes along and insists that he can get away with using a FFFFg main charge. Believe me there is NO ADVANTAGE to using a 90 grain charge of FFFFg in any gun. So then he gets distracted one day while loading, doubles the charge and boom. Game over for him, bystanders, and me and my insurance company.

One of the earlier responses to this topic said it is not unusual to use 4 Fg for a main charge. I beg to differ with you sir. It should never be done. Please let's not have this be seen as normal. If your gun won't shoot unless you load it with FFFFg then you are doing something wrong or you need a new gun.

Respectfully,
Matt Denison aka laffin dog
North Star West, Inc.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Thank you , Matt, for chiming in on this. I thought I had lost my marbles as I have never seen so much written about how its Okay to use 4Fg powder in the barrel for a main charge. This began when a regular member mentioned that he had worked up loads in his TC using $fg powder but stopped at 50 grains! because hsi gun didn't blow up, he thought it was okay to use 4Fg powder in the barrel!!!

Then along comes this guy saying he is going to use 90 grains of FFFFg, powder for a main charge! My only thought is to shake the man's hand while its still attached to the rest of him.

More than 30 years ago, a man walked into a local sporting goods store wanting to know where he could buy a Left Handed Hawken rifle. Since the owner of the store wouldn't know one black powder rifle from another, but knew I was the Lawyer for my local club, he told the man to talk to me.

This man was huge. Late 20s, 6'5", 260 lbs of muscles and very little fat- appeared to have worked out of doors most of his life. He told me had fired his buddy's T/C Hawken, in .50 caliber that weekend, and it hurt his shoulder so badly that after 5 shots, he decided the stock just didn't fit him. I asked him what projectile he was shooting, and he said the " Maxi-ball ", from the same company. Then I asked him how much powder he was shooting under that maxi-ball, and he said, " 150 !" I asked him if that was FFg or FFFg powder, and he said FFFg Powder! I then asked him where he got that load? He claimed the salesman at some discount store had told hid buddy to use that load!

I reached out with my hand and asked him to shake it. He tentatively put his hand out and asked me why I wanted to shake his hand. I looked him straight in the eye and told him quietly, " because it is still attached !!"

I then explained the difference between proof loads, and target loads. The store where he bought the gun was out of 50 cal. ball, so they sold him the maxi-ball, and told them, " they are just as good ". I gave the man the address for the NMLRA, and told him to join. The magazine, Muzzle Blasts was full of ads then advertising custom made Left Handed Hawken and orher style BL rifles. At the time, no one was marketing a LH anything, commercially made. I also told the guy to use 2Fg powder, reduce that load to 50 grain, and not to exceed 90 grains, with a Round ball. I told him where he could buy round ball in town, and that while the owner of the store did not regularly carry black powder or balls and caps, he would be glad to order them for a customer, and call you when they come in. I gave him my business card, the name of the local club, and directions to our range so he could come down and shoot with other ML shooters and learn all the tricks. I explained in the sternest terms and demeanor that T/C, like other manufacturers over build their barrels and rifles to protect themselve from lawsuits by people like his buddy who rely on the statements of some Jerk in a discount store, rather than get proper loading information from the manufacturer, or from more reliable sources. I told him that it was this kind of thing that his buddy did that keeps civil defense lawyers up at night worried about whether than can save their clients from financial ruin because a jury may just feel sorry enough for a plaintiff to award him a huge judgement when the defendant did everything possible to keep this kind of accident from happening, enclosing detailed safety warnings in the literature that goes out with each gun( only to be lost or misplaced in the backrooms of those discount stores ) etc. If you wonder why you now see guns on racks with plastic ties through the trigger guard, through a plastic bag that holds a booklet with the factory instructions in them, so that the manufacturer is less likely to become a victim of these discount store clowns, now you know.

Don't use priming powder as a main charge. Don't use it as a " priming charge " with the substitute powders. ( talk about spikes in the pressure curves!!!) Priming powder is for Priming, ONLY.

 

While I agree that ffffg should NEVER be used in a rifle, it is more than 'Just' priming powder--it has been and is still used as a revolver load powder.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The only revolvers that I use ffffg in are my NAA .22s. That's because the manufacturer specifies it. The thought of touching off a chamberful of ffffg in any of my full size C&B revolvers makes me very nervous indeed.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I think Russ T. Frizzen is correct. I would never use FFFFg powder in even my .36 navies, much less a .44 revolver. That is the home of 3Fg powder, only.

 

[Norseman]

Sounds like a "load" of manure! (Pun). Disregard this voodoo, stick with standard recommendations.

 

I think Russ T. Frizzen is correct. I would never use FFFFg powder in even my .36 navies, much less a .44 revolver. That is the home of 3Fg powder, only.

...fact remains that ffffg has been 'recommended' as a pistol [revolver] powder and loads for it along with ballistics figures can be found in the old Lyman BP load manual. I have not used it myself, nor do I recommend it, but simply stating that others do. Some CW reenactors also use it for blank loads in their pistols. As fffg works just as well with lower pressures, it makes sense to me to use fffg. Against the growing trend of fffg for every bore through .62, I still use ffg for my .54 and up guns. Pressures, you know....

 

[paulvallandigham]

If it were not so hard to find 4Fg powder, I would also use it firing blanks. It does make a much bigger boom with less powder than using 3Fg for that purpose. I don't remember reading any recommendations in old Lyman loading manuals about using 4Fg in any guns, but then there is a lot of stuff written many years ago that we no long would trust. I can remember when Dad's first manual did not show a velocity, or energy data for various load, as the authors did not have access to chronographs, which were large affairs, often built in house by the ammo companies in their indoor ranges.

I played around with small charges of 4Fg powder when I was young, taking a lot of precautions to not damage the gun, or injure anyone. It became apparently very quickly that you could not trust the powder to burn at the same rate shot after shot, and we abandoned using it for anything other than priming a flintlock. I don't think we even got up to the 50 grains of 4Fg powder that Roundball reports using in one of his guns before he stopped. I do remember that the last amount we used gave us that ' whoo-00-00- whee-ee-ee ! " feeling of being glad to have survived! And we were surprise that there was no damage to the gun.

 

Just for comparison sake, here are a couple of examples from a website claiming to quote data from the Lyman 1994 edition (my older ed is not at hand). For a .36 Navy (.375 ball) 20 gr fffg = 967 fps MV; ffffg = 1006 fps MV. That's only a 4% V increase, which does not seem like should be a big pressure increase. For the .44 (.451 ball) he gives 25 gr fffg = 805 fps; ffffg = 868 fps, only a 7+% increase in V....of course this says nothing about the shape of the pressure curve...