50 or 54

[paulvallandigham]

If you are even thinking of another ELK hunt, then choose the .54. You already have .50 cal. rifles, yes?

Choose a swamped barrel, the flatter, wider butt plate to reduce felt recoil in the larger caliber, and use 2Fg for your powder charge, to reduce the recoil and chamber pressure in the .54. You can work on reduced powder charges for shooting ground hogs, and for deer hunting. Save the teeth rattling charges for that one shot at an ELK.

That huge chunk of lead() 230 grains) in a .54 is going to completely penetrate deer and lesser game, so spend your time working on accuracy. Ball placement will be the prime factor in having a DRT shot on game. :hmm:

This is just my opinion, and no doubt worth every dime you paid to get it. :grin:

 

[nchawkeye]

A .50 won't do anything a .54 won't do...

Ammo supply won't be a problem, just order a mold and roll your own...

My load for the past 15 years or so has been 80grs of Goex FFF under a patched .530 ball...Previously I used up to 120grs of FF but found that that big heavy ball does fine with less powder...

I sight in 2 inches high at 50 yards and I'm about 2 inches low at 100...

You'll end up with a .40 for those groundhogs anyway...

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Casting won't be a problem. I am not concerned about the little extra lead the 54 will take. I have about 600# or so(haven't actually weighed it) of pure lead. And probably about 3,000# of WW on the shelves. So I am pretty well covered there. And I also have a 36 caliber if I was going to get serious about ground hog huntnig. I just like to take my big game rifles out and practicing in the summer. And hunting ground hogs is great practice. You have to pick your shot exactly at 150 yards with open sights to kill a ground hog. After that, killing a deer is a piece of cake at 150. Tom.

 

[Herb]

You wanted some numbers. From Lyman's "Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual, volume 2": 32" barrels, round balls: .50 cal., 120 grains Goex 2F 1991 fps, 120 3F 2045 fps, 80 2F 1694 fps. Bullet path at 2000 fps: 50 yard zero, 75 yds -.91", 100 -3.11", 125 -7.02", 150 -13.06".

.54, 120 grains 2F 1803 fps, 120 3F 1735 fps, 80 2F 1442 fps. Bullet path at 1800 fps: 50 yd zero, 75 -1.17", 100 -3.87", 125 -8.48", 150 -15.39". So at 125 yards the .50 shoots 1 1/2" flatter. If you load the .54 to the same velocity as the .50, it will shoot a tiny bit flatter (bettter ballistic coefficient). You can of course use mild loads, but the .50 will shoot flatter with the same charge, such as 80 grains. Not important for deer hunting, but for groundhog head shots, yes.

My bench with a .50 flintlock I am building. 100 yard range. Chronograph.

Rear sight with a notch (hole) I like.

100 yard targets, I aimed the two left groups with the front sight blade even with the top of the circle. Couldn't focus it sharply. Third on, on right, I tapped the front sight to the left to bring it to center and aimed with the top of the blade in the center of the hole. Is this a head-shot groundhog, or what?

Friend Carl Jackson with a .50 flintlock I built for him and a mule deer he killed with 80 grains of Goex 2f, roundball, at a lasered (after the fact) 165 yards. He thought the buck was only about 100 yards away and aimed at the back of his head as the buck walked up a hill. He hit about 14" low, right of the anus, and the ball penetrated about 18-24". The buck laid down and soon died. I read this sign and saw the gutpile and where Carl shot from, and it was 165 yards.

You don't need a .54. IF you ever hunt elk, you will probably have a guide to assist you. A .50 roundball through the heart-lung area will kill an elk. You would probably be reasonably close, and a dead shot from killing all those groundhogs. Don't choose a .54 because you MAY someday hunt elk. Think of all those hundreds of shots you will have in practice, at targets, groundhogs, and maybe one per year to kill your deer.

 

[Linc]

.54 cal with a swamped barrel to lesson the weight would be my choice. I would prefer more power than needed instead of not enough. :thumbsup:

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Thanks Herb. A simple question. I was thinking a 100 grain 3F BP load. That should yield between 1600-1700 fps in a 54 and 1700-1800 fps in a 50 caliber rifle. Is there any noticable difference in recoil between those two loads?? Thanks, Tom.

 

[David W.]

I know this gets kicked around alot. And I have read through most of the posts in the forums, so I have done some searches. So please don't flame me for that. I apologize for being redundant.

I have been discussing a new FL build with you guys. And I think I will be ordering a rifle in the next week or so.

I have a couple of decisions to make. One of them is to finalize the caliber. I have limited it to the 50 or the 54 caliber. And I have narrowed it down to either an Early Lancaster or an Early Virginia style with a 36" barrel.

The rifle will be used as a deer rifle. And it will be a hunting rifle, not a competition rifle. I will spend a good bit of time practicing with it in the summer time, so I suspect it will also kill a bunch of groundhogs(the fun part). I may get to go on another elk hunt someday. But if so it will probably just be a cow elk hunt, but none the less an elk hunt all the same.

I am a handicapped hunter. And I do all my shooting and hunting off of my modified Kawasaki Mule.

I think I have listed my usage as well as possible. So what do you guys think?? 50 or 54??

Please also discuss the type of powder you use(2F or 3F), and the load. And any trajectory comments if you know the exact trajectories to maybe 175 yards. Thanks, Tom.

My vote is for the .54. Since you are attempting to shoot at longer distances, you need the extra weight of the .530 RB ((225 gr.), as opposed to the .490 RB (180) Gr). The .54 will have a bit more arc in the trajectory, but the larger RB will maintain more energy. Shooting out to 175 yards may not be very practical, however with either caliber. 125 yards, maybe 150 is about the maximum, realistically speaking. Because of the poor coeficent of the round ball, wind resistance slows them down in a hurry.

What granulation of powder the rifle likes is different for each rifle, so I'm told. Any rifle I have shot makes no difference whether I used FFg or FFFg. That's just with me though. Somehow, I can get the same accuracy, others say FFg or FFFg does not work well in their rifles. Keep in mind that a general rule of thumb is to reduce the powder by 10% if using FFFg. I use Swiss, so I reduce it another 10%. Another thing I like about FFFg is that it doesn't foul as much as FFg. Add to it that a 10% reduction in the powder charge adds up over time in shooting cost.

I agree with your choice in the 36" barrel. The longer sighting plane helps on accuracy. Also, one does not want a Virginia rifle with too short a barrel, because it looks stupid.

 

[longcruise]

IMO, it's a no brainer. If you plan to do any elk hunting go with the .54. I know its only .004 inch but the differnece in terminal results is pretty significant. Cow or bull, no diff, they are both potentially very big.

Your .54 will also serve very well on deer.

 

[Herb]

Lyman's book says 100 gr Goex 3F in the .50 will be 1949 fps. In a .54 it will be 1538 fps. In the same stock design and weight of rifle you couldn't notice any difference in recoil. BUT: (From the First edition of Lyman's book, no exterior ballistics in the 2nd) your 150 yard drop with the .50 is 13.81" at 150 yards and 22.78" at 175, from a 50 yard zero. With the .54 it is 20.55" drop at 150 yards and 32.60" drop at 175 yards. You may find your groundhogs at long range- and while a near miss is fun, so is a clean hit. And a flatter trajectory helps that.

 

[Herb]

On my 100 yard targets, that 10th shot with 120 grains was more cheek pounding than I wanted. So I held my face away from the stock, and that is why that 5th shot pitched to the left.

 

[hanshi]

The TVM Early Lancaster I'm having built is a .54. Don't currently have one larger than .50.

 

[MSW]

As you can see, the overall consensus goes with the .54, and i agree. Mies van der Rohe wasn't always right when he said 'less is more;' sometimes more is more, and more is good, especially when it comes to 'whompability.'

As regards the possibility of a swamped barrel- go for it! You will gain a great advantage in balance and 'holdability.' A while back i built a .36 using a 36" long straight barrel, and i was quite pleased when i got a rifle with the balance point just at the ramrod entry pipe. Then i built a .40 cal with a swamped 42" barrel and this one also balances at the rod entry pipe. So, what i get with no trade off in the balance point, and very little extra weight, is an extra foot of sight radius.

I like the cone i did at the muzzle, but that's a matter of preference, and some guys say it ruins accuracy, but i don't see the difference if you take your time and do the job properly.

Good luck with your upcomming build!

 

[nkbj]

So, what does it take to get the 54 to shoot as flat as a 50?
My old Dixie 50 with the 43" barrel is a really flat shooting rifle. You put 90 grains of powder behind a round ball in that small of a bore and it's honking.
So, what does it take to get a 54 to shoot really flat? Surely someone has made it happen.

 

[Herb]

The same velocity. When a .54 is loaded to the same velocity as a .50, the .54 will shoot a tiny bit flatter, having an insignificantly higher ballistic coefficient. But that takes some doing. Lyman's book with .50 and 90 grains of Goex 2F shows 1768 fps, with 3F it shows 1844 fps. With a .54, 90 grains of 2F is only 1480 fps but 120 grains is 1803 fps. 90 grains of 3F is 1475 fps but 120 grains is 1735 fps. Swiss powder will give higher velocity, so will Triple 7. But these powders do even more for a .50.

 

[Dphar]

I know this gets kicked around alot. And I have read through most of the posts in the forums, so I have done some searches. So please don't flame me for that. I apologize for being redundant.

I have been discussing a new FL build with you guys. And I think I will be ordering a rifle in the next week or so.

I have a couple of decisions to make. One of them is to finalize the caliber. I have limited it to the 50 or the 54 caliber. And I have narrowed it down to either an Early Lancaster or an Early Virginia style with a 36" barrel.

The rifle will be used as a deer rifle. And it will be a hunting rifle, not a competition rifle. I will spend a good bit of time practicing with it in the summer time, so I suspect it will also kill a bunch of groundhogs(the fun part). I may get to go on another elk hunt someday. But if so it will probably just be a cow elk hunt, but none the less an elk hunt all the same.

I am a handicapped hunter. And I do all my shooting and hunting off of my modified Kawasaki Mule.

I think I have listed my usage as well as possible. So what do you guys think?? 50 or 54??

Please also discuss the type of powder you use(2F or 3F), and the load. And any trajectory comments if you know the exact trajectories to maybe 175 yards. Thanks, Tom.

50 is near perfect for deer with 90 gr of fff. This will kill deer to 120-140 yards.
54 is best for elk if you can't get bigger.
Shots past 130 yards not realistic unless lots of practice is done. A hunting rifle for big game should be sighted for 120-130 yards. This will keep the ball within 3" of line of sight to 140 yards or so. This will allow a dead on hold to 130-140 yards with velocities in a 1800-1900 fps range for a 54. My 38" barreled 54 will make 1900 with 90 gr of FFF Swiss but it has a cupped breech which increases velocity somewhat. I used to shoot 100 gr of fff GOEX in the same rifle. FF will work well too but may need 10 gr more to get the velocity.
Sighting at less than 100 is not recommended since the drop at 120 is going to be pretty dramatic.
I would not recommend shooting past the range where to ball drops 4" under line of sight. 175 is too far for a 54 though much longer shots were made in time of war, but shooting people is not big game hunting and the objectives are not the same.
A range finder, a good one, is a great help.

Dan

 

[Herb]

Dan, your great experience really tells how to do things well. Having tested things like this, I know your advice is as good as can be had.

 

[Dphar]

So, what does it take to get the 54 to shoot as flat as a 50?
My old Dixie 50 with the 43" barrel is a really flat shooting rifle. You put 90 grains of powder behind a round ball in that small of a bore and it's honking.
So, what does it take to get a 54 to shoot really flat? Surely someone has made it happen.

If the starting velocites are identical the 54 will shoot flatter than the 50. Larger balls have slightly higher ballistic Cs.
With the same ratio of powder 90 in a 50 or 110 in a 54 the trajectories will be very close.

Dan