At 75 yds or less I would not care which one I took afield for Elk or Deer either will work well with a good head of steam and a well placed shot, I do not mean a super magnum load but something in the 70-90 gr 3f range, I have never been much to try and kill game with mathematics mixed with ML's thewre is not a ballistic formula ever used that will work if the ball does not hit the spot and practice and very good distance estimating are the keys to this part of the game, some feel a big ball is a must, I prefer to look to placement/range with any cal. any shortfal with these will not be fixed by hitting the animal with a golf ball in the butt.if you are going to buy one gun and the choice is twixt the .50 or .54 the larger bore is probably the best choice for most hunters.
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50cal vs 54
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That's why I said maybe a half pound. I was guessing and didn't weigh them.
And actually it's a bit over 4 ounces . . . so Zonie wins the prize . . .
And actually it's a bit over 4 ounces . . . so Zonie wins the prize . . .
hanshi
Cannon
I agree with you. From what I've seen in the field, a .45 is about equal to a 30/30, a .50 is somewhere between a .35 Rem. and a .303 British. The .54, IMHO, is right up there with the .308. We're talking woods distances, here.
Kentuckywindage
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oh boy here we go with comparing muzzle velocities of a 128gr round ball that'd bounce off an elks shoulder or wound it high up in the rugged mountains.
You cant compare a round ball to a modern day rifle shooting smokeless powder and a bullet that actually holds its energy.
You cant compare a round ball to a modern day rifle shooting smokeless powder and a bullet that actually holds its energy.
Rat Trapper
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My TC Hawken in 54 cal likes the Hornaday great plains 390 grain bullet with 120 grains of 2F Triple Seven and a CCI Mag cap. That load hits an average of 1673 FPS and shoots under an inch at 50 yards. Before anyone who favors wimp loads says this is an unsafe load, I contacted TC and they assured me it would be ok. I've used this load since 2005 with great results. My TC Hawken in 50 cal prefers 90 grains of 2F Triple Seven with the Hornaday 385 grain great plains bullet. I use a felt wad under both loads.
paulvallandigham
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What are you using this load for, if I may ask?
It would be a good ELK load, and work well on Black Bear, and on Wild Boar over 250 lbs. Large mule deer would also be a possible game target for this load, IMHO. :hmm:
It would be a good ELK load, and work well on Black Bear, and on Wild Boar over 250 lbs. Large mule deer would also be a possible game target for this load, IMHO. :hmm:
airmansteve
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I shoot a .50 but after careful consideration, I think I could miss just as well with a .54! :rotf:
hoochiepapa
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Rat, when I was hunting with my Cabela's .54, I used 100 grs. of poopodex behind the Hornady bullet, and had great results. Can't beat it.
Now I'm into round balls.
Now I'm into round balls.
hanshi
Cannon
Muzzle velocity wasn't part of my comparison; I was going by the ball damage and quickness of kill. I've used a huge variety of smokeless calibers on deer and have seen enough to convince me of these comparisons. I specified woods ranges because a prb does lose some of it's "good" if you try and use it at cartridge distances. Prb still kills deer reliably and quickly past 100 yards with good shot placement but the farther the target the greater the risk. Hope this explanation helps.
The original post asked the difference between the killing power of a .50 and a .54 at 75 yards.
Figuring that a person wanting to know this may have some knowledge of modern cartridge guns I figured that giving him the results of a commonly used method of calculating "killing power" might help him see the difference.
On the off chance that he was not familiar with the killing power of a patched roundball I added the results of the same formula as it applies to a well known modern cartridge.
This was my only reason for comparing modern cartridges with the .50 and .54 caliber shooting a roundball.
Figuring that a person wanting to know this may have some knowledge of modern cartridge guns I figured that giving him the results of a commonly used method of calculating "killing power" might help him see the difference.
On the off chance that he was not familiar with the killing power of a patched roundball I added the results of the same formula as it applies to a well known modern cartridge.
This was my only reason for comparing modern cartridges with the .50 and .54 caliber shooting a roundball.
Rat Trapper
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Paul,
I use this load to fill the freeze with nice tender whitetail fawns! Up here in Wisconsin they are pretty tough, and will run a long ways when hit with a PRB, so I use a big bullet with lots of powder! I know you enjoy crawling around on your hands and knees tracking. I on the other hand have out grown the desire to do that.
P.S. Main reason I have used this load is cause it shoots real well. I may have to reduce this load when I get to your age and no longer enjoy recoil.
I use this load to fill the freeze with nice tender whitetail fawns! Up here in Wisconsin they are pretty tough, and will run a long ways when hit with a PRB, so I use a big bullet with lots of powder! I know you enjoy crawling around on your hands and knees tracking. I on the other hand have out grown the desire to do that.
P.S. Main reason I have used this load is cause it shoots real well. I may have to reduce this load when I get to your age and no longer enjoy recoil.
paulvallandigham
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Long before I became a MLer, I was a Deer Checker in Southern Illinois, and examined the wounds, wound channels, exit wounds, etc. of almost 600 deer. All but a few were shot with Rifled Slugs from Modern Shotguns. A few were taken with PRB.
I didn't see a deer taken with a bullet from a MLers until I was hunting deer on my own, and happened to camp next to some fellows who used a T/C .54 and some of the Maxiballs. It wasn't any more dead than the deer I killed with PRB.
The PRB expanded well, regardless of the range of the shot fired, and all the .50s, and .54s were complete pass-through shots, leaving larger exit holes than did the conicals. Damage to the internal organs with the PRB was actually more extensive than the bullets, which seemed to go right through the vitals without expanding.
I don't care if you use conicals and massive powder charges to shoot Mice- your gun, your choice. :surrender:
The fact that I am a tracker does not affect my choice of shots to kill my deer DRT. Several friends of mine have commented on how I don't do much tracking of my own deer, but instead use my skills to find the deer shot by others. :hmm:
The main concern I have with shooters using these heavy loads is the affect of recoil on the shooter's ability to accurately place their shots on game. I happen to agree with Tg's comments about this subject: a large ball or bullet hitting the wrong place is not going to make up for bad aim, "flinch", or placement.
The same has been said for years about modern " Magnum" rifles, that seem to be used by modern hunters in direct proportion to the lack of skill and experience they have had hunting game.
Anyone who says that large powder charges behind heavy conicals don't recoil is lying. And they recoil more than using a PRB in the same caliber gun, using the same, or more appropriate powder charge. I have spent too many years coaching shooters at my gun club to know that recoil does affect how accurately they shoot- first shot or last shot.
Some stocks make the recoil FEEL harder than do others. New shooters don't know that, mostly, and they need to learn about stock design and stock fit to have a gun that they can shoot accurately, regardless of what they put down the muzzle. Manufacturers make guns to fit some "Mythical" Average guy, but most shooters are far from average. The most I have heard about choice of stock fit from new shooters, is what they think is a relationship of their height to the Length of Pull( LOP). No consideration is given to the length of their necks, of the width of their shoulders, and the particular style of butt plate they have on their gun( or drop at comb and heel, Pitch, etc).
I just helped another member figure out how much wood he needs to take OFF a manufactured stock to get it to fit him. We took measurements of of his gun, and watched how he mounted the gun to his face and shoulder. Then, I had him try three different guns I own, that have shorter( and one that is longer) LOPs, so he could understand better what he needs. He started by telling me that he needs a 13 1/4" LOP. When we finished, he decided that a 13" LOP will actually fit him better.
He is only about 5'5" tall, but has a short neck, and barrel chest. He may need to change the pitch of that stock, but we can work on that issue after he has shortened the factory stock so that the LOP is correct for him.
So have at it, with my blessing. I only asked the question because I know from experience that that heavy bullet, and powder charge are NOT optimal for shooting whitetails. They will serve you quite well if you are hunting heavier, and big boned game animals.
As for shooting fawns, I hope you pass on those shots.
I have shot several yearlings in my life, and they all were as big as 1 1/2 year old Does, with NO sign of buttons, or antlers showing between their ears. I didn't know that I had killed yearling bucks until we lifted the hind legs to begin field dressing the deer. Even the experienced deer hunters who were helping me get the deer out of the field were amazed that you could not even feel buttons under the fur on their heads. Dress weight was right around 85 lbs. for those yearlings, the same as several 1 1/2 year old does checked into the local check station. These were huge, corn and soybean- fed yearlings!
Had I been able to see the family jewels before I shot, I would have passed on these deer, and let them grow to become the monster bucks their genes promised they would be.
When I was a deer checker, an older hunter brought in a fawn- still had spots showing-- that dress weighed only 35 lbs. He, and other members of his family hunting party had been lined up along a long ravine, and this fawn had been running with its mother doe, but on the side away from the shooters. They all shot at the Doe, but missed her, their shots passing under her and hitting this little one, running next to the doe but out of sight. :idunno:
We counted 17 total wounds- entrance and exit-- to this fawn before it dropped dead in front of him. ( The reason for the odd number count is that the deer was field dressed, and skinned, and one of the slugs may have exited at a point that was bisected by the cut up the stomach. There were NO 12 ga. slugs found inside this small deer!) :hmm:
He told me that he didn't know if he fired the killing shot or not, but that he was not going to leave that fawn out there and continue hunting, so he used his tag so that his sons and nephews could continue to hunt. He was ashamed that they had killed a fawn.
I admired and respected that man for his hunting ethics for using his tag on that deer, rather than leaving it out there for the coyotes. He could have done so- and we both knew it. He also told me that he planned to put a rear sight on his shotgun for shooting slugs before the next season. :shocked2: :hmm: :thumbsup:
"Swiss Cheese" is the closest phrase I can still find to describe that carcass. This is Not my idea of a recommendation to use conicals to shoot deer of any size. I have used a 12 ga. shotgun to kill deer with slugs, but that was before I began hunting with my MLer.
I also learned something about the tenacity of wild creatures to live. :idunno: :hmm: That little one had to been living on adrenalin alone that last 50 yds. she ran.
Best wishes to you in your hunting. :hatsoff:
I didn't see a deer taken with a bullet from a MLers until I was hunting deer on my own, and happened to camp next to some fellows who used a T/C .54 and some of the Maxiballs. It wasn't any more dead than the deer I killed with PRB.
The PRB expanded well, regardless of the range of the shot fired, and all the .50s, and .54s were complete pass-through shots, leaving larger exit holes than did the conicals. Damage to the internal organs with the PRB was actually more extensive than the bullets, which seemed to go right through the vitals without expanding.
I don't care if you use conicals and massive powder charges to shoot Mice- your gun, your choice. :surrender:
The fact that I am a tracker does not affect my choice of shots to kill my deer DRT. Several friends of mine have commented on how I don't do much tracking of my own deer, but instead use my skills to find the deer shot by others. :hmm:
The main concern I have with shooters using these heavy loads is the affect of recoil on the shooter's ability to accurately place their shots on game. I happen to agree with Tg's comments about this subject: a large ball or bullet hitting the wrong place is not going to make up for bad aim, "flinch", or placement.
The same has been said for years about modern " Magnum" rifles, that seem to be used by modern hunters in direct proportion to the lack of skill and experience they have had hunting game.
Anyone who says that large powder charges behind heavy conicals don't recoil is lying. And they recoil more than using a PRB in the same caliber gun, using the same, or more appropriate powder charge. I have spent too many years coaching shooters at my gun club to know that recoil does affect how accurately they shoot- first shot or last shot.
Some stocks make the recoil FEEL harder than do others. New shooters don't know that, mostly, and they need to learn about stock design and stock fit to have a gun that they can shoot accurately, regardless of what they put down the muzzle. Manufacturers make guns to fit some "Mythical" Average guy, but most shooters are far from average. The most I have heard about choice of stock fit from new shooters, is what they think is a relationship of their height to the Length of Pull( LOP). No consideration is given to the length of their necks, of the width of their shoulders, and the particular style of butt plate they have on their gun( or drop at comb and heel, Pitch, etc).
I just helped another member figure out how much wood he needs to take OFF a manufactured stock to get it to fit him. We took measurements of of his gun, and watched how he mounted the gun to his face and shoulder. Then, I had him try three different guns I own, that have shorter( and one that is longer) LOPs, so he could understand better what he needs. He started by telling me that he needs a 13 1/4" LOP. When we finished, he decided that a 13" LOP will actually fit him better.
He is only about 5'5" tall, but has a short neck, and barrel chest. He may need to change the pitch of that stock, but we can work on that issue after he has shortened the factory stock so that the LOP is correct for him.
So have at it, with my blessing. I only asked the question because I know from experience that that heavy bullet, and powder charge are NOT optimal for shooting whitetails. They will serve you quite well if you are hunting heavier, and big boned game animals.
As for shooting fawns, I hope you pass on those shots.
I have shot several yearlings in my life, and they all were as big as 1 1/2 year old Does, with NO sign of buttons, or antlers showing between their ears. I didn't know that I had killed yearling bucks until we lifted the hind legs to begin field dressing the deer. Even the experienced deer hunters who were helping me get the deer out of the field were amazed that you could not even feel buttons under the fur on their heads. Dress weight was right around 85 lbs. for those yearlings, the same as several 1 1/2 year old does checked into the local check station. These were huge, corn and soybean- fed yearlings!
Had I been able to see the family jewels before I shot, I would have passed on these deer, and let them grow to become the monster bucks their genes promised they would be.
When I was a deer checker, an older hunter brought in a fawn- still had spots showing-- that dress weighed only 35 lbs. He, and other members of his family hunting party had been lined up along a long ravine, and this fawn had been running with its mother doe, but on the side away from the shooters. They all shot at the Doe, but missed her, their shots passing under her and hitting this little one, running next to the doe but out of sight. :idunno:
We counted 17 total wounds- entrance and exit-- to this fawn before it dropped dead in front of him. ( The reason for the odd number count is that the deer was field dressed, and skinned, and one of the slugs may have exited at a point that was bisected by the cut up the stomach. There were NO 12 ga. slugs found inside this small deer!) :hmm:
He told me that he didn't know if he fired the killing shot or not, but that he was not going to leave that fawn out there and continue hunting, so he used his tag so that his sons and nephews could continue to hunt. He was ashamed that they had killed a fawn.
I admired and respected that man for his hunting ethics for using his tag on that deer, rather than leaving it out there for the coyotes. He could have done so- and we both knew it. He also told me that he planned to put a rear sight on his shotgun for shooting slugs before the next season. :shocked2: :hmm: :thumbsup:
"Swiss Cheese" is the closest phrase I can still find to describe that carcass. This is Not my idea of a recommendation to use conicals to shoot deer of any size. I have used a 12 ga. shotgun to kill deer with slugs, but that was before I began hunting with my MLer.
I also learned something about the tenacity of wild creatures to live. :idunno: :hmm: That little one had to been living on adrenalin alone that last 50 yds. she ran.
Best wishes to you in your hunting. :hatsoff:
Rat Trapper
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Paul,
Did you ever think that just maybe I was pulling ur chain just a little??
The weather is poor, too much snow on the ground, and nothin better to do than to mess with you. Sorry, but you should have seen that one coming! :haha: :wink:
Did you ever think that just maybe I was pulling ur chain just a little??
The weather is poor, too much snow on the ground, and nothin better to do than to mess with you. Sorry, but you should have seen that one coming!
:haha: :wink:paulvallandigham
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Thanks for making that clear to other, less knowledgeable readers. I spotted it, but was sure that some other readers would not. That is why I decided to write of my experiences.
If you want to pull my chain, just send a PT. That way you don't put bad information here on the forum for people who haven't a clue to take as gospel. I am more than happy to swap BS privately, but I take this forum seriously, simply because we have so many "members", but so few who actually ever post anything.
Many members, and readers are embarrassed by their lack of writing skills: others by their lack of knowledge about firearms in general, and MLers in particular. Too many simply won't risk their egos by asking a question on this forum. Men in general would rather keep their mouths shut, and risk doing something wrong, than to ask what others think is a stupid question and be laughed at. I keep telling folks that the only" stupid" question is the one not asked, but from my years of teaching, telling students the same thing, the message rarely is accepted by students Until they find out how I am going to personally react to a "stupid" question, or worse," A stupid answer".
Telling readers of my personal experiences is not the same as experiencing these things themselves, but at least it gives readers information to think about. They may have some similar experiences of their own to recall. Their experiences may be much different from mine. But, at least I get them thinking on the topic.
Too many shooters are immersed in 'Magnumism", or " more is better" when it comes to guns. While I own magnum revolvers, I own no magnum rifles, or shotguns, for that matter. I do have rifles that will get your attention when you pull the trigger, but they are NOT magnums. I have done the same thing in choosing MLing firearms. And, I obviously have spent a lot of time doing penetration and accuracy tests with my guns to determine how effective they are when used to hunt deer and wild boar.
Trust me: I am a lawyer. I am Paid to ask "stupid Questions!" I got over that one( being embarrassed) long before I decided to enter law school. in fact, asking witnesses stupid questions is a good interrogation technique which I have used over and over again. While a witness is laughing at me, and bragging how much smarter he is than a "lawyer", I am gaining information I could get from no other source, that helps me win my case.
If you want to pull my chain, just send a PT. That way you don't put bad information here on the forum for people who haven't a clue to take as gospel. I am more than happy to swap BS privately, but I take this forum seriously, simply because we have so many "members", but so few who actually ever post anything.
Many members, and readers are embarrassed by their lack of writing skills: others by their lack of knowledge about firearms in general, and MLers in particular. Too many simply won't risk their egos by asking a question on this forum. Men in general would rather keep their mouths shut, and risk doing something wrong, than to ask what others think is a stupid question and be laughed at. I keep telling folks that the only" stupid" question is the one not asked, but from my years of teaching, telling students the same thing, the message rarely is accepted by students Until they find out how I am going to personally react to a "stupid" question, or worse," A stupid answer".
Telling readers of my personal experiences is not the same as experiencing these things themselves, but at least it gives readers information to think about. They may have some similar experiences of their own to recall. Their experiences may be much different from mine. But, at least I get them thinking on the topic.
Too many shooters are immersed in 'Magnumism", or " more is better" when it comes to guns. While I own magnum revolvers, I own no magnum rifles, or shotguns, for that matter. I do have rifles that will get your attention when you pull the trigger, but they are NOT magnums. I have done the same thing in choosing MLing firearms. And, I obviously have spent a lot of time doing penetration and accuracy tests with my guns to determine how effective they are when used to hunt deer and wild boar.
Trust me: I am a lawyer. I am Paid to ask "stupid Questions!" I got over that one( being embarrassed) long before I decided to enter law school. in fact, asking witnesses stupid questions is a good interrogation technique which I have used over and over again. While a witness is laughing at me, and bragging how much smarter he is than a "lawyer", I am gaining information I could get from no other source, that helps me win my case.
Kentuckywindage
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so use a 54cal and remove all doubt :haha:
Burningprince
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there is also a formula for fpe"foot pounds of energy it is.fps x fps x grain weight divided by 450240 = fpe.
so a .50 cal traveling at 1750 fps equals 1224.3 fpe
and a .54 cal traveling at 1650 fps equals 1390.7
but that would be at the muzzle so you would have decrease the velocity to where it would be at say 75 yards so a prb loses about half it's velocity at 100 yards so that would be like this at 75 yards.
a .50 cal traveling at 1000 fps equals 399 fpe
and a .54 cal traveling at 900 fps equals 413 fpe
so for performance it's really close between the two
so a .50 cal traveling at 1750 fps equals 1224.3 fpe
and a .54 cal traveling at 1650 fps equals 1390.7
but that would be at the muzzle so you would have decrease the velocity to where it would be at say 75 yards so a prb loses about half it's velocity at 100 yards so that would be like this at 75 yards.
a .50 cal traveling at 1000 fps equals 399 fpe
and a .54 cal traveling at 900 fps equals 413 fpe
so for performance it's really close between the two
paulvallandigham
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KW: I don't argue with the logic of that proposition. I chose to have a .50 caliber over my prior .45, for hunting deer, as all my testing told me that a .50 could be reliable at taking deer with RB out to 100 yds, if I put the ball in the right place. It was a compromise for me, between the small .45, and the larger .54, which would eat up more lead and more powder than I actually needed for deer hunting. If I lived out West, where hunting mule deer and Elk was as much a possibility as hunting white tails, I would opt to own and shoot a .54. The heavy, 1/2 oz.+ RB that is fired out a .54 simply does a better job of penetrating big-boned animals. :thumbsup:
Rat Trapper
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Paul V.
Have to agree with you there. Wisconsin allows a 40 caliber rifle for deer hunting. To my way of thinking that's too small with a PRB, unless the ball is placed perfect. Same for the 45, and I know that statement may unset a few. The ball for a 45 is pretty small compared to a 50 or 54 caliber ball. We all know that a 22 rim fire has killed lots of game. However those that know better will use better!
Have to agree with you there. Wisconsin allows a 40 caliber rifle for deer hunting. To my way of thinking that's too small with a PRB, unless the ball is placed perfect. Same for the 45, and I know that statement may unset a few. The ball for a 45 is pretty small compared to a 50 or 54 caliber ball. We all know that a 22 rim fire has killed lots of game. However those that know better will use better!
