.54 PRB or .50 Maxi-Hunter for Deer?

[Little Wattsy]

"I'll just state that the connical is ballistically better in every catigory "

Except the category of being a truely traditional projectile (this is in reference to conicals of modern design) for MLs, this is not of any concern to many but is nice to know for those who are interested in experiencing the traditional ways of ML hunting. Typical ballistic standards have been found to not reall apply to the RB as a whole when it comes to killing ability, kinda like the ol' bumblebee can't fly story.

TG, not even YOU can really associate ballistics which is a dicipline of physics and tradition which is a study of history. Surely you dont try to compare facts with emotions....Thats like trying to compare gravity to your favorite color. :wink: FEEL what you like, there is a romance to it (PRB's) I'll admit but the facts of the "ballistically superior" dont change. :hatsoff:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've used both, and at the distances you mention. I see no real difference. Deer piles up within 25 to 50 yards. Complete penetration so I can't say which expanded or not. At that diameter expansion is not critical - penetration is.

The BEST result I ever had was with a .50 patched round ball. The buck dropped without moving it's hind legs and went down in a heap.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Wattsy: This is something that should only be discussed after field dressing a downed deer shot with each. The RB does expand and leaves a large exit hole, while the conicals don't expand at all. Neither is going fast enough to produce a secondary wound channel. Both produce primary wound channels, that begin at 50 caliber, but the RB will exit much larger, and the damage done to internal organs is much wider and more massive with the RB than it is with the conical, all other things being equal.

If you have a deer check station near you, spend a day at the station, examining the wounds to the deer taken with various arms, and projectiles. I was a deer checker for two years in Southern Illinois, long before I ever hunted my first deer. Most of the deer were shot with shotgun slugs, which also did not expand. Occasionally someone would bring in a deer that had not been field dressed, and if we had the time, we would help him field dress the deer their at the scales, so he could get a proper weight to compare to the deer taken by his friends. I learned a lot about primary wounds of mostly slugs, but then also PRB, and conicals in BP rifles. Only a handful of deer were killed that first year with MLers, but the second year, we had about 20 brought to the check station. It was more interesting to us to examine these deer, because they were out of the ordinary, as far as we were concerned.

Since then I have killed, or helped dress out deer killed by other members of my party, some with shotgun slugs, and others with RB and Conicals. All of us were shocked at how little damage was done by the conicals, when we opened up the deer. The concensus was that the RBs put the deer down quicker. None of the shot were taken at 100 yds, or further. Most were taken under 50 yards. Most of the deer sent less than 25 yds before they dropped, while deer shot with conicals, or shotgun slugs would often go twice that distance, and further.

Based on my personal observations and autopsies of dead deer, I believe that the RB is a totally different breed of projectile, and the science being used to measure conical bullet Ballistics just does not tell the right picture for RBs. Even slugs made of pure lead do not expand very well in deer, where a RB does. That is what surprised the heck out of me, as I had expected better expansion after doing penetration testing with shotgun slugs. :shocked2:

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Depends on which conical is being used. I tried the 240gr maxiballs on my first year of hunting with a .45 and it was the most god awful experience yet. No penetration, very very little blood, 2 lost deer and i barely got the 3rd one.

Only shot one deer with a ball and that right through the head.

Mostly used the new age soft lead conicals, especially for this years elk.

 

[paulvallandigham]

What powder charge, and at what distance were the deer shot? I have seen those .45 240 grain Maxis go completely through a deer. No, they don't leave much blood, because they don't expand. That is why you have to know how to find and read deer tracks!

For Elk, a conical is to be recommended. Its big boned enough that if your bullet strikes any bone at all, it will expand, for sure. The body is thick enough to cause some expansion even when no bones are hit during a pass-through shot. I would use a .54 caliber rifle and larger, for Elk, however. I know my .50 would do it with conicals, but that is on the minimum size, and would require staying within 100 yds for my shot.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

70gr Pyrodex P. First shot was a high lunger @ 30 yards, Deer took off for 1/2 mile, second shot was directly behind the shoulder, deer took off running for another 1/4 mile before stopping and laying down by a cattle guard. No bullets exited, even the close 30yard shot, never found any bullets either so i am thinking they were either in bone or in the guts.

One conical that was a let down was a massive 385gr hornady great plains conical. Expanded to the size of a half dollar but only made it through one shoulder. Used sidearm to end it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Okay: You recovered the deer. Did that 220 grain Maxiball exit the deer's body? What kind of damage was done- and how deep was the wound channel?

According to Hodgdon's data manual, your load should have produced almost 1600 fps. MV. with that .45. Was the powder damp, or old? If so, that might explain the poor performance.

And, its been commented here that some conicals veer out of the line of fire as soon as they hit flesh, so you don't have a predictable wound channel in line with the Point of Entry. That it is why its so important to take the time when dressing the deer, to take a look at the organs to see what was hit, and where. Only then can you decide whether to use a different bullet.

I have not seen RBs veer in the flesh once they hit a deer. They tend to stay on their line of fire from point of entry until they either exit or come to rest.

In fact, my first deer was a large, old doe, and the RB broke a rib going in, and another going out. I could not recover the spent bullet in the leaf turf because of the angle of the line of fire, without a squad of guys using metal detectors. The exit hole was between a nickel and a quarter in diameter, however. The primary wound channel from the first broken rib was at least .60 caliber in size.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Honestly couldnt tell you what the insides looked like. That was back in 2001 and my memory is fuzzy. I barely got that deer. It ps's me off that i lost 2 deer with that bullet.

I like soft lead that will expand and perform when it comes to a conical.

 

[PreglerD]

Last year I shot a roebuck (34 pds field dressed) with a 370 grs Maxiball out of my .50 Deerhunter. The buck was about 60 meters away and standing broadside. The maxi hit him and he made a last jump and was dead. The curious thing was that I had a good entry hole behind the shoulder blade, but the exit was at the brest, even he stand broadside. The loung was completeley mixed up, only bloody materlial left. I guess the maxi was overrolling when it hits the buck.


Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[Dausener]

I've used booth, although my maxi hunter bullets are 350 gr. I beleive, and each will do the job well. I've never recovered any of them. The deer don't seem to notice the difference. :shocked2:

 

[paulvallandigham]

That kind of reaction is typically what we see deer do when they are shot through the heart, or the major blood vessels from the heart to the lungs. Only a careful examination of the entry and exit wounds( if an exit wound exists) can tell you much about the bullets performance. No one said examining damaged lung tissue is easy. You need water- lots of it-- to wash of the tissues as you carefully spread them out. Only then can you see the nature and shape of the primary wound channel through the lungs.

I find most hunters, even long experienced one, reluctant to get their hands into the guts, and get all bloody to do the kind of " feel " work needed to answer these questions. They are equally surprised that a lawyer is willing to do this kind of work, in front of their eyes. Its just blood, and fluids, and they wash off. They are fascinated watching me do the work, however, and are always interested to learn what I find, and to see it for themselves, when I show them.

 

[longcruise]

The curious thing was that I had a good entry hole behind the shoulder blade, but the exit was at the brest, even he stand broadside

That effect has been observed by other users of the Maxi ball. One theory I've seen posed by a hunter who observed the same thing on moose is that while the 1/48 stabilizes the bullet in flight, it does not retain stability in flesh and will often take odd paths inside the animal. Part of this is because of the Pointy nose (that's just my opinion) and part because of the low level of stability of an pretty much non-expanding slug.

Pure lead slugs need to be traveling at least 1150 to 1200 fps in order to expand reliably.

I have shot one deer (mule deer)and one elk (red deer on your side of the pond) with .50 370 grain maxi balls. The elk was hit plumb broadside and the maxi hit a rib going into the chest cavity and stopped under the skin after passing between two ribs on the far side. A perfect double lunger!

The rest of this story requires that you understand a bit about elk behaviour. To sum up, elk are not inclined to flee without identifiying the danger and it's location. Even though this bull had been double lunged, he was not sure what was going on and probably did not feel much pain. But, mainly, he did not know what and where the danger was.

I thought I had missed him! I stepped behind a small spruce tree to reload without being seen. No speedloader, just used the horn and measure to pour powder, retrieved a greased maxi from a plastic bag in my pocket retrieved a cap from my breast pocket and stepped out for a second shot. The bull saw me then and started to leave the area but fell dead before I could fire the second shot. That probably seems like it went down perfectly, but the fact is the bull was 50 yards from black timber on either side of him and he took probably at least 30 seconds or more to go down. I have had elk bolt with a double lung shot and go down in five seconds but covered 100 yards in that five seconds so you can see what he could have done in 30 seconds. That's why I chalk that shot up to poor maxi performance.

The deer too the maxi through both lungs on an angle and exited on the offside just behind the last rib. Also did a bit of damage to the liver. That deer walked 150 yards and then layed down. I had to sneak up behind him for the coup de grace being careful not to send him running. Even though he was laying down, his ears were fully upright, which is a sure indication that he has some strength left!

That was the last animal I ever shot with a maxi. Been prb ever since and have never had another incident like the two above. Furthest any animal ever went was the one that ran 100 yards in five seconds.

Sooo, I'm not a prb user because I feel that *tradition* demands it. I don't even re-enact or have a traditional costume. I use prb because at the ranges I'm able to shoot accurately with a ml and iron sights it is more effective on game than conicals.

 

[tg]

"I use prb because at the ranges I'm able to shoot accurately with a ml and iron sights it is more effective on game than conicals."

But that cannot be......all the ballistic books tell us another story, could it be that modern ballistic data does not hold up to the odd way PRB's perform? :thumbsup: I think if a lot of connical shooters tossed the connicals and the ballistic books into the trash they would kill as many animals with the PRB, but some can't shake the math and just hunt like they did in the past.I wish someone would do some research and cone up with some period connical molds, that would give the best of both worlds and probably show why the prb stayed the favorite for so long.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

how many shots did it take for lewis and clark to drop a grizzly? 15 or around there wasnt it?

 

[rabjr]

No, was only 10 shots...

 

[Kentuckywindage]

:haha: by golly was that all?!

Good thing there were quite a few boys shooting because if you were a single person, and could shoot an average of 2 shots per minute, you'd have that ol grizz down in a measly 5 minutes all by your lonesome :rotf:

 

[rabjr]

The explorers soon changed their tune, thanks to repeated incidents like the one on May 5, 1805, in what today is eastern Montana. Spotting a grizzly on a beach, Clark and George Drouillard, the expedition's best hunter, went forward to kill it. Lewis reported what happened next:

"It was a most tremendious looking anamal, and extreemly hard to kill," he wrote. "Notwithstanding he had five balls through his lungs and five others in varrious parts he swam more than half the distance across the river to a sandbar & it was at least 20 minutes before he died; he did not attempt to attack, but fled and made the most tremendous roaring from the moment he was shot."

Over the next few weeks, bears chased the men up trees, across the prairie and into the river, continuing the pursuit even when wounded in the heart and lungs. They forced hunters to flee from the carcasses of elk and bison they had shot. Eventually, the men stopped going out of their way to find grizzlies, their attitude summed up with marvelous understatement by Lewis: "I find that the curiosity of our party is pretty well satisfyed with rispect to this animal."

 

[Idaho Ron]

Wattsy: This is something that should only be discussed after field dressing a downed deer shot with each. The RB does expand and leaves a large exit hole, while the conicals don't expand at all.



Neither is going fast enough to produce a secondary wound channel. Both produce primary wound channels, that begin at 50 caliber, but the RB will exit much larger, and the damage done to internal organs is much wider and more massive with the RB than it is with the conical, all other things being equal.

Here we go again. I question where you get your information. Where ever you get it DON'T! Here are two bullets. Both bullets were from the same deer. The deer bucked at the first shot but stayed on his feet. The canyon was very open with very little brush and allowed follow up shots were easy to take. Both of these bullets entered the flank area and tunneled forward to the off shoulder where they were found under the skin.
Both of these bullets are Hornady 410 gr. The load was 100 gr of Pyrodex Select RS. The yardage was between 150 and 175 yards. The rifle was my TC Renegade. The deer was dead on his feet but I don't stop shooting on anything. If it is on it's feet I keep shooting.
This first bullet weighs 354 gr. The widest part is 1.05" in Diameter.

This second bullet is 387 gr and it is .920 in Diameter.

As you can see they both expanded quit well. In fact if you conceder they were traveling much slower because of the distance they expanded very very well. Now can you post a picture of a RB with a diameter that exceeds 1.05? As for penetration, these bullets plowed through about 3 foot of deer. The wound channel was straight or it would not have went that far.

Based on my personal observations and autopsies of dead deer, I believe that the RB is a totally different breed of projectile, and the science being used to measure conical bullet Ballistics just does not tell the right picture for RBs. Even slugs made of pure lead do not expand very well in deer, where a RB does. That is what surprised the heck out of me, as I had expected better expansion after doing penetration testing with shotgun slugs. :shocked2:

I am tired of the RB boys spreading :bull:
I can pass up about so much :bull: and I have to say something. I question you and TG's actual experience with killing game with a ML. The stuff you guys post is so full of :bull: I hate to read what you will come up with next. RB do NOT have wicked voodoo magic. Conicals do NOT take a back seat to a PRB in the field hunting. You guys need to get over your it. Conicals have their place and RB's have a place. If you guys like RB's fine! DON'T spread :bull: and pass it off for fact about conicals. I don't think you have ANY knowledge about conicals at all with the statements I have read. I am finished with this thread since it has turned into a conical bash AKA modern vs traditional. Every thread ends the same way here any more, thanks for ruining another thread. Ron

 

[jtmattison]

Good info on the conicals Ron. Thanks for posting. However, the rant was a bit uncalled for.

:v

HD

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've been lucky in that a muzzleloader shot deer with either round balls or back when I used Maxi-Hunters never held it's feet for more than about seven seconds. Takes me three times that long to get a second load down unless I really go for speed - which ain't always a good idea in hunting conditions. That's still enough time for the deer to put 100 yards between the impact site and the pile-up. I stopped taking heart shots as they went twice as far than with double-lung shots; in my experience, of course.

I've had deer with rifled slugs that expand to well over 1" go further and hang on longer than with round balls. Same with the two bucks I've killed with a .30 cal "modern" cartridge rifle (7.62X54R w/180 gr soft points). Mostly due to me being pretty selective about the shot before I squeeze of a muzzleloader.

This is a .490" that "expanded" to .520" across the widest. Entered the chest with a 15 yard frontal and I found it in the hide behind the left thigh-bone. Deep dropped without taking a step. It is the ONLY round ball OR Maxi-Hunter that did not pass completely through in my harvests.

Tunneled around the bone but did not shatter it. It was "out of gas" by the time it had passed through that much deer (30 to 32").

Sorry to hear your first conical failed, but 175 yards is really pushing it. Surprised it did expand so much! Must have been a heck of a load!

As far as every thread here with conicals turning into conical bashing? DUH! It's a traditional site run by traditional muzzleloading shooters with traditional muzzleloading members. Muzzleloaders TRADITIONALLY use round balls. What part about that don't you understand? We don't forbid bringing them up, but it's like a fart in church.

I haven't fired a Maxi-Hunter since I've been a member here . . . almost five years now.