.54 PRB or .50 Maxi-Hunter for Deer?

[Idaho Ron]

This is a .490" that "expanded" to .520" across the widest.

I wasn't going to reply any longer but you brought up a couple of things I had to comment on. Your RB didn't quite open up as much as the Conical did. Hey Paul do you have a line of,, somthing that can explain why the conical that as you say WON'T expand expanded almost twice as much as the RB?

Sorry to hear your first conical failed, but 175 yards is really pushing it. Surprised it did expand so much! Must have been a heck of a load!.

I never said it failed. The buck was on his feet still and that gave me the chance to keep shooting. If I would have stopped after the first shot the buck would have been dead. Like most of us that actually hunt can attest, big game don't always act like the rug was yanked. You gave a good shot at trying to prove my conicals failed. In this case they did not fail in any way, in accuracy or energy. Sorry to hear your RB failed because it they can't break bones. man I bet a lot of guys loose animals because of that.

As far as every thread here with conicals turning into conical bashing? DUH! It's a traditional site run by traditional muzzleloading shooters with traditional muzzleloading members. Muzzleloaders TRADITIONALLY use round balls. What part about that don't you understand? We don't forbid bringing them up, but it's like a fart in church.

I haven't fired a Maxi-Hunter since I've been a member here . . . almost five years now.

If you don't want talk about conicals BAN THEM! Kick off everybody that uses them, Lyman peep sights, Globe sights, Stainless steel barrels. If someone makes a post or a reply that has anything to do with a gun, bullet, or powder that is not on your PC or HC list kick then kick them off. Remember to kick off everyone with a TC rifle, maybe even the lymans. Ron

 

[longcruise]

Now can you post a picture of a RB with a diameter that exceeds 1.05?

Here's front and back of a .54 ball that measures about .85. Hit an elk broadside and near sliced the heart in half as well as deflating both lungs. The funny looking side has bone embedded in it from the rib it went through.

This is the elk that stayed on it's feet for a full five seconds and covered about 100 yards. I wish I could find the maxi that hit the bull in nearly the exact same spot going through a rib on entry and between on the other side. No expansion and just barely smeared the lead on the nose.

 

[nchawkeye]

Funny...

Bowbender asks about deer and 50-75 yards shots..

Now we are shooting at grizzlys and shooting out to 150-175 yards...

Since I shoot a custom made .54 caliber flintlock with a 1-72 round ball twist and deep rifling...I still prefer a roundball... :grin:

 

[jtmattison]

If you don't want talk about conicals BAN THEM! Kick off everybody that uses them, Lyman peep sights, Globe sights, Stainless steel barrels. If someone makes a post or a reply that has anything to do with a gun, bullet, or powder that is not on your PC or HC list kick then kick them off. Remember to kick off everyone with a TC rifle, maybe even the lymans. Ron

:yakyak:

ff

Can we get back to the original topic now?

HD

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ron: It is evident that how a conical reacts in hitting flesh often depends on how fast it is spinning. Can you at least tell us the ROT in the rifles that fired these two slugs, before you go away mad?

I have two .50 caliber rifles with a 1:48 ROT. Conicals are a bit indifferent, but those with round noses, or blunt noses are more likely to pass through deer in a direct line, than the pointed ones I have observed. I didn't think much about those, as my samples observed were under 10, and not enough to draw any conclusions. Its only after listening to the experiences of other shooters and what has happened with their conicals that my observations began to take meaning.

I also have a good friend who designed his own slugs, and makes his own molds, and has tested thousands of bulets and slugs. I listen to him, too. He collects the stories other hunters tell him about using conicals on deer( including his own design that he gives to them). And, he has a couple of boxes of spent bullets taken from deer to show people as he explains why certain designs function better( penetration on line of fire, and expansion.)than others.

It seems to me that your idea that information can only be obtained by shooting your own deer with a given slug, and then shooting lots of deer is a bit limited. That is not how education works in any other endeavor. Hopefully, you learn MORE from the mistakes that others make, so you don't have to repeat them, NO?

If your experience disagrees with my own, and my observation of wounds, and interviews with the hunters who shot the deer, and with my friends, that is okay by me.

You want to become the " victim " of an attack by people who like the PRB? That's okay, if a bit melodramatic, for my tastes, too.

The fact that you share your information here is what is important, for all of us, including me. I have learned more from your comments about conicals than from any other recent source, and I was talking to my friend last night about some of the information I was getting on this forum. It was a comment from him that has led me to ask about the RATE OF TWIST of the gun used to fire these two slugs?

The purpose of this forum is to share information. I have some flat nosed conicals that have expanded, and look quite similar to the two bullets you show here. Maybe the shape of the nose is the lesson to learn from this discussion, no?

Mine were shot at deer at less than 60 yards, and I did not think to ask the ROT of the shooters, because I didn't realize it might be significant until this topic was posted here. I know the velocity of these couple of slugs would be expected to be greater than those you have shown, however.

Most of the time, when conicals are used, there is NO recovery of the slugs, because the body is completely penetrated. What we can learn only comes from gutting the animal and looking at that primary wound channel closely. But, the same is also true shooting RBs at closer ranges. If we can't combine, and share information from many sources, I doubt that any of us is going to learn much about what works and what doesn't.

Thank you for your pictures and comments.

 

[tg]

"Both of these bullets entered the flank area and tunneled forward to the off shoulder where they were found under the skin"

and at 150-175 yds.. I would have to say that for taking multiple shots at deer at that range and shooting them thru the flank to the opposite shoulder that the conical is probably the better choice, If you are comfortable with that kind of shot, personaly think it is a rather pathetic approach to ML hunting but that is your choice.
I would think that a multiple shot centerfire would be better for such shots at that range, I don't subscribe to the spray and pray method with ML's, I just stay within the very reasonable range that the PRB works well in and let the long range shots go, but each sportsman..?? has their own ways of diong things.

 

[oneshot]

Wattsy: This is something that should only be discussed after field dressing a downed deer shot with each. The RB does expand and leaves a large exit hole, while the conicals don't expand at all. Neither is going fast enough to produce a secondary wound channel. Both produce primary wound channels, that begin at 50 caliber, but the RB will exit much larger, and the damage done to internal organs is much wider and more massive with the RB than it is with the conical, all other things being equal.

If you have a deer check station near you, spend a day at the station, examining the wounds to the deer taken with various arms, and projectiles. I was a deer checker for two years in Southern Illinois, long before I ever hunted my first deer. Most of the deer were shot with shotgun slugs, which also did not expand. Occasionally someone would bring in a deer that had not been field dressed, and if we had the time, we would help him field dress the deer their at the scales, so he could get a proper weight to compare to the deer taken by his friends. I learned a lot about primary wounds of mostly slugs, but then also PRB, and conicals in BP rifles. Only a handful of deer were killed that first year with MLers, but the second year, we had about 20 brought to the check station. It was more interesting to us to examine these deer, because they were out of the ordinary, as far as we were concerned.

Since then I have killed, or helped dress out deer killed by other members of my party, some with shotgun slugs, and others with RB and Conicals. All of us were shocked at how little damage was done by the conicals, when we opened up the deer. The concensus was that the RBs put the deer down quicker. None of the shot were taken at 100 yds, or further. Most were taken under 50 yards. Most of the deer sent less than 25 yds before they dropped, while deer shot with conicals, or shotgun slugs would often go twice that distance, and further.

Based on my personal observations and autopsies of dead deer, I believe that the RB is a totally different breed of projectile, and the science being used to measure conical bullet Ballistics just does not tell the right picture for RBs. Even slugs made of pure lead do not expand very well in deer, where a RB does. That is what surprised the heck out of me, as I had expected better expansion after doing penetration testing with shotgun slugs. :shocked2:

People kept telling me I was crazy.But for years I killed Deer with 20ga. Slugs no problem.Went to 12ga. I hated it,first day out shot a Deer it ran no Blood,pile of Hair.Couldn't find it.Well shot another Deer no Blood,just hair.Was looking for it finally found all kinds of Blood,found that Deer plus the first one I shot.Lucky I had two Tags.Went back to the 20ga.I asked Winchester about this.They said this was normal on thin Skined Deer the heavier Slug just plows through,the Deer run holding their Blood in.

I've killed alot of Deer with 54Cal. Patch and Ball out to 100 yards.I've shot alot of Deer with 50Cal. 385Gr. Great Plains Bullet.I would rather use the 54Cal. with Patch and Ball.

Seems a Bullet from 200-250Gr. is just about the right weight.

oneshot

 

[paulvallandigham]

I believe much has to do with the nose shape of the bullet, or slug, as to what effect it has in thin skinned animals, like deer. I have used Winchester 1 oz. slugs in my 12 gauge that have a small "cup " in the nose ( not really a hollow point design) and the last deer I shot with one, I broke its left shoulder going in, and took off the top( rear) of the heart. He still managed to stagger and fall about 20 yards before piling up and dying. The opening in his heart was almost 4 inchs long, and about an inch and a half wide. He was pumping on half a heart those last few steps, and running on adrenalin, only.

I have seen dozens of deer shot as you have described. Usually, the slug is NOT recovered so its very difficult to determine what happened with it, ( Or what didn't happen with it.) All you can do is compare those wounds in deer to wounds where slugs are recovered, and to the effect of hitting a deer with a flat nosed slug to decide what is working. MY friend, Jim, who designed and makes his own slug, has a wide, flat nose on his slug, and it performs beautifully. There are short blood trails, from the point where the animal was hit, until it dies. If a small deer is shot broadsides, his slug leaves a huge exit hole, and there is an even shorter double blood trail to follow.

I found that if I hit the deer high in the lungs, the lungs have to fill up before any blood comes out, and the fur DOES soak up a bit of blood before you start seeing it on the ground. I have tracked deer thus wounded more than 50 yards before I found the first sign of blood on the ground, or a branch or leaf. The same thing often happens to deer killed with Broadheads, BTW. I also have found deer I tracked that had stuff mud and moss into the wounds they could reach to stop the bleeding. All these things, as well as distance to the game when shot affect bullet performance.

As popular as tree stands are for deer hunter, that downward angle will usually make the entrance wound strike high on the ribcage, and penetrate the upper side of the lungs. Unless the slug, or bullet goes completely through the deer, leaving an exit wound down low, those lungs have to fill up with blood before any blood comes out the entrance wound. I have experienced this myself. I have forsaken tree stands, except for scouting, and now hunt from ground blinds. Its safer for me, personally, and it allows me to shoot deer lower through the lungs, where the blood begins to leak out almost immediately. At the ranges I can shoot, a PRB is all that I need. If conicals in that 220 grain range work for you, use them! Its more than enough for whitetails.

 

[rabjr]

I have to say thats been my finding with .12ga slugs also Paul. I've shot a lot of deer up here with the .12 ga, federal 1oz slugs for the most part from a smoothbore barrel. Most dropped within sight, 50 yards or less but I had some runners that made ya scratch your head too. Blood trails were pretty much non existent unless the animal went over 50 yards.

 

[tg]

Often we tend to think in modern mindsets, a .25 or .30 cal bullet that expands pretty good and id over a half inch to 3/4 or more after going into the deer, with the ball many are starting with a projectile as large or larger than the high powered bullet ended up the 50thru 62 cal balls will plow a pretty good hole thur a deer without any expansion, and are quite enough of a projectile at 100 yds or less, a bullet that expands more will not likely kill the deer any deader or knock it down any faster, untill you get way out there where the extra weight and design of the bullet come into play, but by then to have a type of sights that will put the bullet on target, and the bullet itself a type that is acting much like a modern large bore bullit are we still really in the true ML realm or are we somewhere in between the Devil and the deep blue sea?

 

[tg]

"BTW. I also have found deer I tracked that had stuff mud and moss into the wounds they could reach to stop the bleeding"

Is this to say Deer are administrating emergency first aid when shot....I did not se a smily face with that one and think it would be very appropriate..or :barf:

 

[roundball]

Hi All,
I am just hoping to get some input on which round would make a better 50-75 yard deer slug. A .54 PRB or a 275gr Maxi-Hunter conical? The Maxi-Hunter has about 50 gr more weight but I have heard that the PRB's expand better. Thanks for any input.

From personal experience on a number of deer, the .54cal/.530"/230grn round ball is devastating on eastern whitetails at distance, and at only 50-75yds they're a gimme;

The conicals would certainly work as well of course, although the extra cost and recoil is of no benefit...but IMO, if you were going after moose they might seem a better fit.

Years ago I played with TC's .45cal/255grn Maxi-Hunters a lot...they are tack drivers in 1:48" twists, and also devastating on deer.

I have read about...but have no personal experience with...Maxi-Balls...having poor performance in game because of their top-hat design...that the slanted shoulder on the nose sitting atop the skinny post under it allows it to tilt one side or the other at impact and cause the maxi-ball to steer off from the original direction of travel...looked at a few photos of them and the articles certainly seemed to make sense.

But to your original question, IMO, 90-100grns of Goex 3F or 2F behind that 230grn round ball will take every deer you hit with it assuming a properly placed shot...furtherest one I shot with my .54cal PRB was 70 yards and it was a complete pass through, and he bolted / dropped after about a 25 yard sprint.

 

[roundball]

You got that kind of expansion from conicals at 175 yards with a mere 100grns Pyrodex ???

=============================================
These photos are of a .62cal .600” cast ball driven by 100grns Goex 2F out of a rifled .62cal Flintlock, at only 35 yards head on into a buck's neck, traveled the full length of his body and stopped, bulging under the skin at the back of his right ham...dropped like a sack of potatoes of course...I think some of the ball got sheared off going through neck vertabrae then traveled through 3-4 feet of animal.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

After using a 240gr maxiball on 3 deer, the very next year i went to a new type of conical.

225gr. with 80gr 3f triple7 (Horrible powder- i know)

Can't complain about that kind of leaky hole.

When it comes to hunting, I am going to use what i feel that offers me the best chance at taking game swiftly.

 

[Stumpkiller]

When it comes to hunting, I am going to use what i feel that offers me the best chance at taking game swiftly.

Look into a .404 Jeffery or a .416 Rigby, then. :wink: No sense messing around with slow & stodgy 'ol muzzleloaders.

You can kill someone just as "swiftly" with an ice-pick or a baseball bat as with a hand grenade or bazooka. Knowing how and waiting for the best opportunity makes the differense.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Nah i dont play well with that kind of stuff.

I thought it was a nice match :haha:

128gr is to tiny in Colorado to meet legal requirements.

 

[longcruise]

You got that kind of expansion from conicals at 175 yards with a mere 100grns Pyrodex ???

I got exactly that kind of expansion with lee Modern Minies over 100 grains of ff at 25 yards. Dug em from a hard packed and wet berm. They penetrated about five inches! :hmm:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yeah. I just tallied my notes and I've taken 32 deer with variations of a 100% lead projectile of round lead or conical (plus a handful more with arrows or jacketed cartridge type bullets . . .and only one from a treestand) since all the way back when EVERYONE looked like Drew Carey and I know we all form opinions based on our limited scope of experience. I happen to like round balls and use a size that DOES fall within my state guidelines. I've known guys who had problems with Maxi-Balls when they first came out ("Like stabbing then with a pencil") so that I avoided them. I had good luck with Maxi-Hunters but now I only use round balls. You just have to play to the strengths and weaknesses of the weapon. I'm lucky in that most shots occur within 40 yards. But that's also because I put myself where most shots will be within 40 yards.

It's all relative. Try still-hunting with a traditional bow & cedar arrows and the muzzleloader with round ball will seem like a cheat by comparison. :wink:

 

[Kentuckywindage]

placing your self in an area where you know you will have a short shot is fine but once you get out in the open land of colorado and have millions of acres of public land, that just aint going to happen. They make it look easy on tv but when you step in to it your self, its an whole new world.

I remember the very first elk hunt i went on we spotted the elk running down in a valley and i had to run over a 1/4 mile through a foot of fresh snow and then up the side of a mountain to get a shot. No telling where game will be unless you have a friend or live in that certain area your self.

Game,Set,Match

 

[roundball]

You got that kind of expansion from conicals at 175 yards with a mere 100grns Pyrodex ???

I got exactly that kind of expansion with lee Modern Minies over 100 grains of ff at 25 yards. Dug em from a hard packed and wet berm. They penetrated about five inches! :hmm:

That sounds completely believeable...but I'm from the "show me" state of Missouri on that kind of expansion at 175yds after being driven by a mere 100grns pyrodex...but maybe it's just my inexperience with muzzleloaders