58 caliber flintlock help

[doubletrouble]

I recently built a Chamber's English Gentleman's rifle in 58 caliber and I'm having some accuracy problems with it. I am fairly new to flintlock shooting but have both 40 and 50 calibers that shoot well. To start with I thought my 58 had really slow lock time but after videoing it several times I saw it was about as fast as I could ask for. The cock fall is slower than the ignition which does bother me quite a bit when shooting offhand. The bore diameter in the gun is .5805 and is supposed to have .016 deep round bottom rifling. I started with a .575 diameter ball and .015 linen patch lubed with a beeswax lanolin mix. My patches were blown all apart. Next I tried .020 cotton material with a really tight weave and these were very hard to get started down the bore. I then bought some .018 pillow ticking and it loaded tight but seemed perfect. These didn't burn or blow up. Shooting from a bench I still was getting very erratic results. I'd have a couple almost touching and then a flyer 3 inches away. I'm spit patch wiping the bore between shots so bore is clean for every shot. I starting thinking that maybe my thick lube was making patch stick to ball too long so I started trying every kind of lube I had. Used Bore butter, Ballistol, Coca butter with lanolin hand cream to light oils. Same results except patches blowing up again. I had started with 75 grains of FFg and ended up with 110 grains of FFFg as the best load so far but still no better than 5 inches at fifty yards. I've used Swiss,Goex and Grafs powders with same results. I then used a 28 ga lubed fiber wad on top of powder then my patched ball and thought I had it when first two were in one hole. The next two were 3 inches lower touching and then the next five were all around. OK I'm getting frustrated by now and decide to recrown the muzzle to see if that's the problem, Set it up in my lathe and got it within .0005 at muzzle and cleaned up the old crown which was very square and true maybe only .002 to clean it up. I did change the shape a little because the original crown had very sharp start to rifling lands and seemed to be cutting the thick patches. Have not shot it since recrowning but as close as old crown was I don't think this was the problem.
OK should I go to a .562 diameter ball and a much thicker patch or keep using the .575 diameter ball and an .018 patch. I've ordered some Mr. Flintlock patch lube but not sure that will make a difference. I've shot cap locks for 40 years and never had this kind of trouble getting a gun to shoot. I know I'm not the best flintlock shooter but off a bench I should be able to shoot a good group at 50 yards. By the way I'm using a peep sight that is mounted at the tang which should make it easy to shoot well with. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[biliff]

FWIW,
My .58 flintlock has a 36" D weight Colerain barrel, 1/56" twist rate. Standard paper punching load is a .562 home cast ball, drill patch (about .018" from JoAnne's fabric store), spit lube and 70 grain's FFFg Goex. Hunting loads are 90gr FFFg and olive oil lube. Shoots 3" to 3 1/2"groups at 100 yds (no wind).

I've also tried .570 and .575 balls without a lot of luck. Loading was either way too hard for multiple shots at paper or on a trail walk or accuracy just wasn't there.

And, yes, flintlocks can be a different animal even from the bench. Inconsistent ignition can throw a monkey wrench in your shooting. Make sure the flint is sharp and correctly positioned every time. Wipe the pan/frizzen and flint between shots. Pick the vent.

 

[timothy prouty]

I made a54cal and have the same trouble with it I glass bed it and recrown the barrel with a round ball Grindr and now it's shooting great hope this helps

 

[majg1234]

Changing a lot of things :surrender: can cause some issues too.When I was trying to get my round bottom rifling 58 settled in I got all kinds of advice,most of which didn't work for my rifle at all.Finally I settled her down with 120g Ffg Goex,20gauge felt wad over powder,.562 hand cast RB patched with .020 ticking lubed with beeswax and olive oil.It will thumb start and produce 1-2 inch groups @ 75yds,Heck it even made meat @ 77yrds measured.Just keep working with it you'll find it's sweat spot,Often really significant flyers are flinching etc

 

[doubletrouble]

Thanks guys, I'LL keep trying. Have a .562 mold on the way so we'll see how that works.

 

[BrownBear]

Gotta ask about the twist rate on your rifle. One of my 58's has a slow twist (don't remember what at the moment). And it doesn't really start coming into its own until I pass 120 grains of 2f. It's at its best at 140 grains.

As for going to a .562, that's going to be a pretty huge jump to fill with a patch and what sounds like pretty deep rifling. I'd sure pick up a box of .570's and give those a fling too.

 

[doubletrouble]

The twist rate is 1-66. Yes I agree with the size of my bore and groove diameter .562 seems small but I have to try something. I might try some .570 diameter balls too.

 

[Grimord]

Based on your posted results, I was thinking that maybe there is a high spot in the rifle bedding and when the barrel heats up from shooting the first two shots the wood puts pressure on the barrel to cause it to shoot to a different point.

Just a thought, and something to check.

 

[doubletrouble]

You know I thought of barrel moving too because it is a swamped barrel and I'm sure these can move around do to heat. My barrel is pinned to stock and I didn't make the holes slots to allow for expansion of wood or barrel. Maybe I'LL try that next. I did shoot it this morning and the first two shots were in the same hole, the next two were touching but two inches lower and the next two touching and another two inches lower. I think the barrel heating is causing part of the problem maybe. The swamped barrel would surely heat up differently than a straight barrel. Never had this kind of issues with a muzzleloader. I love the gun and enjoy shooting flinters but this one is trying my patience. I've just about had it.

 

[Dane]

Look to your ignition issues. Properly set up lock, and properly installed white lightning liner..... Should be instantaneous.
If cock is falling slow.... There is an internal problem. Something is slowing it down.
Chambers Queen Ann lock is a sparking beast!

 

[doubletrouble]

My ignition is almost instantaneous but the cock fall does seem slow. I've videoed it several times and it is very fast. I do see my head move a little after cock has fallen but before flash in pan happens, this is in slow motion frame by frame that I see this. The time between flash and bloom is as fast as I can expect I think. I've checked every possible contact point inside mortise to be sure nothing is dragging. All internal lock parts have been stoned and lubed. I do have a Chamber's White Lightning vent and it is in the correct position. I'm definitely not a good flint shooter off hand but can shoot my other guns much better than this one. Off the bench I should be able to shoot a group not a pattern. I have made a wooden flint and am dry firing off hand to try to get used to the clack of the cock hitting the frizzen. I'm slowly finding little things that may be causing issues and with experienced flintlock shooters giving me their opinions I think I'LL get it figured out.

 

[doubletrouble]

I'm starting to really think about the barrel heat moving my point of impact. I've noticed that the first two shots every time I shoot are to the sights and together. I do wipe between every shot so it has to be barrel heating up and not fouling. I may slot my pin holes to make sure expansion from heat isn't bending things.

 

[SgtErv]

Just sort of brainstorming, but have you changed the target? Or are the sights something you're not used to?

I was using some targets with a fairly large bull and was shooting terribly, probably changing my exact point of aim. Switching to a target with smaller bull helped a lot with this.

Just an idea, maybe not a very good one haha - I'm certainly no expert.

Good luck!

 

[doubletrouble]

Yes I'm using a peep sight that I use on most of my iron sighted rifles now. I also use very small targets so I can try to hold steady. I can shoot well off hand with peep sights just not with this flintlock! Can't get it to shoot off bench either. I'LL get it figured out someday. Keep finding little things to help maybe. I have the barrel pin holes slotted now so I'LL be at the range again tomorrow. Hope this may be the problem.

 

[SgtErv]

Hmm...only other thing I can think of is using as little priming powder as possible. The smaller the flash the better results I've experienced

Again, good luck. You sound determined so you'll get it :thumbsup:

 

[Eric Krewson]

How big is your touchhole? I opened my .54 and 12 ga to 5/64 and saw a remarkable difference in ignition speed.

 

[varsity07840]

Given that you live in NC, you're obviously shooting in hot weather. I'm curious as to how the rifle shoots in cool/cold temperatures. If it settles down or at least gives you a longer string of good shots, then I'd say it's a heat/bedding problem. I hope you get it squared away before the cool weather arrives.

 

[Larry Akers]

You don't state the maker of your barrel, but your problem sounds exactly like there are stresses in the barrel that have not been relieved. I made a pistol barrel once that would shoot to POI for about 4 shots and then start to climb. By the end of a 10 shot match, it was more than 2 feet high at 25 yds. Since then I stress relieve my barrels just before final finish.

 

[nhmoose]

My ignition is almost instantaneous but the cock fall does seem slow. I've videoed it several times and it is very fast. I do see my head move a little after cock has fallen but before flash in pan happens,

Welcome to Mr. Flinch cure is shoot and follow the sights only many many many times.

 

[doubletrouble]

My touchhole is .065 diameter and has fast ignition. Chamber's said the main spring was as strong as it could be so no speeding up the cock. I can use a pinch to a pan full and this gun goes bang every time until flint gets dull. I think most of the accuracy problems are barrel, ball size or patch related.
Yes it hot as youknow here and the barrel gets too hot to handle after a few shots.
The barrel maker I'm not sure will contact Chamber's to find out.
Bought some different patch material to try and my mold didn't come today, its been sitting in a Fayetteville post office for two days.
I shot the gun more this morning after slotting the pin holes, that made no difference. The first couple of shots were great and then it went all over the place. Stresses in the barrel or just too skinny of a barrel. One other thing I didn't mention is the my peep sight had to be way off center of barrel to sight in. I mean if I'd had normal iron rear sight it would have fallen out of dovetail its so far off. The crown is true to the bore so where did that come from. I think I'm going to order another barrel in 50 caliber and try that if I can't get this one shooting with new ball size.